What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dalek Prime
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:14 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
sthitapragya wrote: It is because of thoughts that you know you are conscious. Consciousness does not contribute to thought. Thoughts create consciousness.
I'd have to mull this over a bit, but if I'm not aware, I'm not having a thought. Even in a dream, I'm aware of dreaming.(Yes, I'd prefer using 'awareness' in this context, to avoid 'conscious' overload, which I've stated elsewhere.)
You are thinking from the perspective of an adult human being. You have already been trained in a particular language and you have learned to associate words with external stimuli. That is why your thoughts, when you focus on them, seem to have a language. But when you are not focusing on your thoughts, there is no language. I can think of what I want to type but when I observe the process and the speed with which I do it, i realize that if I actually told my finger, "type I" and then my finger did it, then on to the next letter and so on, it would take forever. It is obvious there is communication between my fingers and my brain which is faster than words can form in my mind. We know that it is combination of electrical impulses and chemicals that manage it, quite similar to how an ant works. Had our brains been less evolved, we would be living a life quite similar to an ant's.

We however have a brain which has evolved enough to give us a language and when we choose to, explain to us a tiny bit of what happens. But we also have a brain which is sufficiently evolved to understand that we will die some day, which no other animal has. Animals might be able to understand that they are dying, but they do not seem to have the ability to understand that they could die some day in the future. This ability of humans seems to have brought with it questions like, " If I am going to die, why am I here?" etc etc. This brought with it awareness of the self which had nothing to do with survival, which we call consciousness. Consciousness springs from the ability to think. That is why a brain dead person is declared dead. Once the ability to think goes away, there is no consciousness. Consciousness is a byproduct of thought.
I know what you're getting at, but the consciousness is created, and the thoughts start rolling in as it becomes aware of it environment. No consciousness, no ability to begin a thought. (Just bouncing it off you. Not stating as fact.)

Walker
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Walker » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:53 am

bahman wrote:1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?
Hello.

Speaking is thought transformed into a recognizable physical, objective form. Physical sound waves. Why do two people sometimes change from silence to simultaneously saying the same thing, when neither was previously thinking of that thing?

Because this does happen. If examined as a train of thought, each person somehow experiences an identical sequence of associations, perhaps three or four or more in number, replete with personal memories, originating from the same stimulus departure point, which was a shared interruption in the continuity of the moment.

Then as if on unseen cue, each person independently feels moved to speak the same words at the same time. A variation of this is when one speaks and the other remains silent, while pre-knowing the words and meaning of the other.

This effortlessly happens to people who are non-conceptually simpatico, such as a married couple that has synergistically evolved into a third entity over time.

Unless I'm wrong, experiencing this happening could likely be defined as an aspect of inter-dependent thought. By any other name this inter-dependent consciousness can be called a shared proximity of physicality, exposed to identical stimuli, resulting in non-conceptual physical vibratory alignment of thought energy.

Then there are variations that transcend time and space.
Last edited by Walker on Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

sthitapragya
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Tue Aug 16, 2016 3:55 am

Dalek Prime wrote: I know what you're getting at, but the consciousness is created, and the thoughts start rolling in as it becomes aware of it environment. No consciousness, no ability to begin a thought. (Just bouncing it off you. Not stating as fact.)
I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?

Dalek Prime
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:37 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I know what you're getting at, but the consciousness is created, and the thoughts start rolling in as it becomes aware of it environment. No consciousness, no ability to begin a thought. (Just bouncing it off you. Not stating as fact.)
I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?
I think were on the same page, but the brain and what we call consciousness within it must come first in order to generate a thought, no?

sthitapragya
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:44 am

Dalek Prime wrote: I think were on the same page, but the brain and what we call consciousness within it must come first in order to generate a thought, no?
No. From what I have understood, it seems logical that as we grow up, and understand language, somewhere down the line we become aware of the fact that we are aware. The first awareness comes from external stimuli which produces a thought which is interpreted by the brain as either pain or whatever which makes us aware of our own existence. I am convinced that if someone were to be born without any of the five senses, they would never become aware. Their body would be kept alive by the brain but in the absence of external stimuli the awareness of self would not come since there would be absolutely no input whatsoever.

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:37 pm

sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I know what you're getting at, but the consciousness is created, and the thoughts start rolling in as it becomes aware of it environment. No consciousness, no ability to begin a thought. (Just bouncing it off you. Not stating as fact.)
I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?
Lets assume that thoughts create consciousness. What do we get from being conscious of a thought? Why thoughts create consciousness?

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:41 pm

Walker wrote:
bahman wrote: 1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?
Hello.

Speaking is thought transformed into a recognizable physical, objective form. Physical sound waves. Why do two people sometimes change from silence to simultaneously saying the same thing, when neither was previously thinking of that thing?

Because this does happen. If examined as a train of thought, each person somehow experiences an identical sequence of associations, perhaps three or four or more in number, replete with personal memories, originating from the same stimulus departure point, which was a shared interruption in the continuity of the moment.

Then as if on unseen cue, each person independently feels moved to speak the same words at the same time. A variation of this is when one speaks and the other remains silent, while pre-knowing the words and meaning of the other.

This effortlessly happens to people who are non-conceptually simpatico, such as a married couple that has synergistically evolved into a third entity over time.

Unless I'm wrong, experiencing this happening could likely be defined as an aspect of inter-dependent thought. By any other name this inter-dependent consciousness can be called a shared proximity of physicality, exposed to identical stimuli, resulting in non-conceptual physical vibratory alignment of thought energy.

Then there are variations that transcend time and space.
I don't understand how your comment answers the question I raised: What is the use of consciousness?

Dalek Prime
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:58 pm

bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I know what you're getting at, but the consciousness is created, and the thoughts start rolling in as it becomes aware of it environment. No consciousness, no ability to begin a thought. (Just bouncing it off you. Not stating as fact.)
I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?
Lets assume that thoughts create consciousness. What do we get from being conscious of a thought? Why thoughts create consciousness?
We've been through this before. You mean, 'what do we get when we become aware of a thought. Well, we get what we're supposed to get; thought that can be directed purposefully, to our benefit, as opposed to being random.

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:03 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote: I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?
Lets assume that thoughts create consciousness. What do we get from being conscious of a thought? Why thoughts create consciousness?
We've been through this before. You mean, 'what do we get when we become aware of a thought. Well, we get what we're supposed to get; thought that can be directed purposefully, to our benefit, as opposed to being random.
But we could have the benefit of thoughts without being conscious of them. We simply experience thoughts so how being conscious of thoughts could help?
Last edited by bahman on Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dalek Prime
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:07 pm

bahman wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
bahman wrote:
Lets assume that thoughts create consciousness. What do we get from being conscious of a thought? Why thoughts create consciousness?
We've been through this before. You mean, 'what do we get when we become aware of a thought. Well, we get what we're supposed to get; thought that can be directed purposefully, to our benefit, as opposed to being random.
But we could have the benefit of thoughts without being conscious of them. We simply experience thoughts.
We can and do have thoughts we simply experience. But the key to our survival is manipulating them into new thoughts, and putting those into memory.

And looking for answers to why thought is, or consciousness is, is asking for theeaning to existence. Pointless to ask, in my opinion, though fun to speculate on.

Walker
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Walker » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:20 pm

bahman wrote:
Walker wrote:
bahman wrote: 1) We can be conscious of one thought in any given time when we focus on a subject
2) This means that we cannot consciously process thoughts
3) This means that thoughts are processed in our subconscious minds
4) This means that there is no use of consciousness when it come to thought

I am really puzzled with this problem. Your thought?
Hello.

Speaking is thought transformed into a recognizable physical, objective form. Physical sound waves. Why do two people sometimes change from silence to simultaneously saying the same thing, when neither was previously thinking of that thing?

Because this does happen. If examined as a train of thought, each person somehow experiences an identical sequence of associations, perhaps three or four or more in number, replete with personal memories, originating from the same stimulus departure point, which was a shared interruption in the continuity of the moment.

Then as if on unseen cue, each person independently feels moved to speak the same words at the same time. A variation of this is when one speaks and the other remains silent, while pre-knowing the words and meaning of the other.

This effortlessly happens to people who are non-conceptually simpatico, such as a married couple that has synergistically evolved into a third entity over time.

Unless I'm wrong, experiencing this happening could likely be defined as an aspect of inter-dependent thought. By any other name this inter-dependent consciousness can be called a shared proximity of physicality, exposed to identical stimuli, resulting in non-conceptual physical vibratory alignment of thought energy.

Then there are variations that transcend time and space.
I don't understand how your comment answers the question I raised: What is the use of consciousness?
Just so you know, now and in the future you will be required to offer more than huh or nonsense for further news. :wink:

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bahman
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by bahman » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:23 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
bahman wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: We've been through this before. You mean, 'what do we get when we become aware of a thought. Well, we get what we're supposed to get; thought that can be directed purposefully, to our benefit, as opposed to being random.
But we could have the benefit of thoughts without being conscious of them. We simply experience thoughts.
We can and do have thoughts we simply experience. But the key to our survival is manipulating them into new thoughts, and putting those into memory.
And looking for answers to why thought is, or consciousness is, is asking for theeaning to existence. Pointless to ask, in my opinion, though fun to speculate on.
We become conscious of situation, realising options. We become conscious of one option in any given point. We then decide for our benefits but decision cannot be done consciously too because we cannot consciously process options at the same time. So what is the point of being conscious?

Dalek Prime
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by Dalek Prime » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:30 pm

bahman wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
bahman wrote:
But we could have the benefit of thoughts without being conscious of them. We simply experience thoughts.
We can and do have thoughts we simply experience. But the key to our survival is manipulating them into new thoughts, and putting those into memory.
And looking for answers to why thought is, or consciousness is, is asking for theeaning to existence. Pointless to ask, in my opinion, though fun to speculate on.
We become conscious of situation, realising options. We become conscious of one option in any given point. We then decide for our benefits but decision cannot be done consciously too because we cannot consciously process options at the same time. We then become conscious of decision. So what is the point of being conscious?
You are now asking an antinatalist what the point is of consciousness and awareness (life), which has no reason or purpose, and what I always say isn't necessary? A bit ironic.

sthitapragya
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:39 pm

bahman wrote:
sthitapragya wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote: I know what you're getting at, but the consciousness is created, and the thoughts start rolling in as it becomes aware of it environment. No consciousness, no ability to begin a thought. (Just bouncing it off you. Not stating as fact.)
I understand exactly what you mean and I used to think the same thing. But I realized that consciousness before thought brings with it the issue of mind as separate from the brain, which I cannot reconcile with. Thoughts creating consciousness makes it simpler. Since everything is a construct of the brain, why not consciousness too?
Lets assume that thoughts create consciousness. What do we get from being conscious of a thought? Why thoughts create consciousness?
Thoughts convey a sense of self as separate from others. Thoughts also make our complex brains understand that we are thinking and that awareness is what we call consciousness.
Last edited by sthitapragya on Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sthitapragya
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Re: What is the use of consciousness when it comes to thought?

Post by sthitapragya » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:42 pm

bahman wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
We've been through this before. You mean, 'what do we get when we become aware of a thought. Well, we get what we're supposed to get; thought that can be directed purposefully, to our benefit, as opposed to being random.
But we could have the benefit of thoughts without being conscious of them. We simply experience thoughts so how being conscious of thoughts could help?
Other animals have the benefit of thought without being conscious of them. We just have a more complex brain which is aware of the fact that we are thinking. That awareness of our own thoughts is what we call consciousness.

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