Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:52 am

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:Hobbes. In both North and South America, as well as in Australia, a substantial proportion of the indigenous population was wiped out very quickly by diseases for which they had no immunity after invasion by Europeans. One would think that on an evolutionary timescale these populations had not been isolated from the rest of the human population for very long but this is dodgy thinking. At the microbiological level our biosphere is actually evolving very quickly. If you were suddenly transported back into a typical European city of the middle ages you wouldn't last a week. .
If you are so sure then why are there ANY aboriginees, or come to that why did the Europeans not expire because of local disease strains?

The fact is that Europeans were germ rich, and therefore had more highly developed immunes systems due the the fact that the entire land mass from Africa, through Europe and Asia were in regular communication for the last couple of millennia with trade route lining all areas.
Australasia and the Americas were characterised by more localised communities with a lower rate of social intercourse or trade between them.
The Euro/Asian strains had to have been more diverse than the 'colonial areas".
In what way is this a counter-argument to what I said?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Hobbes' Choice » Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:41 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Obvious Leo wrote:Hobbes. In both North and South America, as well as in Australia, a substantial proportion of the indigenous population was wiped out very quickly by diseases for which they had no immunity after invasion by Europeans. One would think that on an evolutionary timescale these populations had not been isolated from the rest of the human population for very long but this is dodgy thinking. At the microbiological level our biosphere is actually evolving very quickly. If you were suddenly transported back into a typical European city of the middle ages you wouldn't last a week. .
If you are so sure then why are there ANY aboriginees, or come to that why did the Europeans not expire because of local disease strains?

The fact is that Europeans were germ rich, and therefore had more highly developed immunes systems due the the fact that the entire land mass from Africa, through Europe and Asia were in regular communication for the last couple of millennia with trade route lining all areas.
Australasia and the Americas were characterised by more localised communities with a lower rate of social intercourse or trade between them.
The Euro/Asian strains had to have been more diverse than the 'colonial areas".
In what way is this a counter-argument to what I said?
Me and medieval Europe are BOTH characterised by historically long and geographically extended biomes, so you could not say with certainly that I would only "last a minute.
As an example, as a descendant of the Black Death I have genetic immunity to that, and to a range of influenza viruses that the people of medieval Europe did not - as well as being the recipient of a list of vaccinations protecting my from diseases that routinely slaughtered medieval man, reducing his life expectancy to around 40.

Thus, as "Indians" had more to fear from incoming Europeans, it might be the case that I was more a danger to medieval Europe that it is to me. I'd not drink the water though!!!

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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:39 pm

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Thus, as "Indians" had more to fear from incoming Europeans, it might be the case that I was more a danger to medieval Europe that it is to me.
Probably both. This wouldn't have been the case with either Australian aborigines or native Americans because they had few communicable diseases because of their lifestyles. Urban living is a health hazard. Your immunity to black death would be an immunity to yersinia pestis as it is Now and this immunity mightn't help you much to the bacterium as it was 700 years ago, the point being that Homo and yersinia have been evolving together since that time.

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Post by henry quirk » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:10 pm

Back on topic...

As the only examples any of us have of minds and near-minds are those extending out of messy, finite, organics, I say - yeah - you need biology (brain embedded in body) to have mind. I'll be glad to revisit my view and change it when conscious matrices of ether come to have coffee.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:59 pm

Me thinks ? {smell the wood burning?} :lol:

What we are reaching for here is more than the lmitations of so-called artificial intelligence and so-called conscious man made intelligence - We are all also reaching the limitations of philosophy - I'm not sure philosophy can answer and/or propose the question of whether a man made computer can become conscious without an 'exact' definition of what is considered to be conscious.
As has bee proposed in the past, and I still propose sometimes, the concept that all parts of perceivable reality are conscious
- Panpsychism {"In philosophy, panpsychism is the view that consciousness, mind or soul (psyche) is a universal and primordial feature of all things. Panpsychists see themselves as minds in a world of minds."}

That said consider this:

Google’s AI just cracked the game that supposedly no computer could beat
Computers have slowly started to encroach on activities we previously believed only the brilliantly sophisticated human brain could handle. IBM’s Deep Blue supercomputer beat Grand Master Garry Kasparov at chess in 1997, and in 2011 IBM’s Watson beat former human winners at the quiz game Jeopardy. But the ancient board game Go has long been one of the major goals of artificial intelligence research. It’s understood to be one of the most difficult games for computers to handle due to the sheer number of possible moves a player can make at any given point. Until now, that is.
Researchers at Google DeepMind, the Alphabet-owned artificial intelligence research company, announced today that it had created an artificial intelligence system that has beat a professional Go player at the game. The company’s research was published in the scientific journal Nature........
See whole aritcle here:
http://qz.com/603313/googles-ai-just-cr ... ould-beat/

Now I have this philosophical question for you........

Say they develop the 'super brainiac' computer that can calculate, theorize, and otherwise act as a virtual gang of super
geniuses - And it is put in charge of {or simply takes over] the world - The entire world controlled by a super brain artificial intelligence {this is already conceivable and goes beyond ordinary science fiction}.

Now as far as you know, and in the way you {as a Human} are conscious - This machine is not conscious - It does not
'feel' like you feel - and furthermore couldn't care less about your so-called 'feelings' - And yet now it has complete control of you and your world - WHAT DO YOU AS A PHILOSOPHER {OR EVEN JUST AN ORDINARY HUMAN BEING} CONSIDER THIS MACHINE TO BE :?: IS IT CONSCIOUS :?: DOES IT MATER :?:









"SCIENCEFICTIONALISM the Religion of the FUTURE"
http://universalspacealienpeoplesassoci ... uture.html

Obvious Leo
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:20 pm

Your hypothetical scenario is implausible because a machine has an "OFF" button. If your superbrain gets too uppity we can recycle it into remote garage door openers.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:59 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:Your hypothetical scenario is implausible because a machine has an "OFF" button. If your superbrain gets too uppity we can recycle it into remote garage door openers.
NO :!: A good part of world commerce is now taking place on the internet - Some say it could still be shut down - That would require a large group of Humans all agreeing to shut down the internet - Possible - but very improbable. You would argue this multi-tasking machine operated world of Human interaction possess no consciousness of its own - and for the moment I might agree - But in the future when more and more Human endeavor begins to rely upon machines and the machines are used more and more for everything from the distribution of resources and food to the scheduling of medical procedures - it will become less and less possible to turn them off - replace one with another - but soon that will be automatic - The real myth here is that there will always be a 'kill-switch' - you could alwys turn it off - Would you bet your like on that :?:

On the other hand why worry about that ? - The machines could care less about how you feel and has no sense about your proclivity toward gambling - 'It' doesn't gamble and wins every time !

As a hypothetical afterthought - If hypothetical aliens with a technology and intelligence far beyond yours were to come
upon the Planet Earth, they could hack in to the internet and take complete control of the species Man by using the grid already operating - And have complete control of the Planet before Man new what was happening - Would be like taking control of your neighborhood ant colony - the ants would have no idea what was happening.
- And this hypothetical 'super-brainiac' machine placed on-line might rapidly figure out how to protect itself from a malcontent trying to interrupt its programming - By the time you realized your olny hope was to get to the power station and turn off its power at the source - the troops it called out would be there and you would be disposed of for being a terrorist.

Science fiction you say? I say future scenarios are still better predicted by sci-fi than philosophy - And what does philosophy say about the future? What does the word future mean in philosophy ?

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
― Albert Einstein










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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:24 am

UniversalAlien wrote:
NO :!: A good part of world commerce is now taking place on the internet - Some say it could still be shut down - That would require a large group of Humans all agreeing to shut down the internet - Possible - but very improbable. You would argue this multi-tasking machine operated world of Human interaction possess no consciousness of its own - and for the moment I might agree - But in the future when more and more Human endeavor begins to rely upon machines and the machines are used more and more for everything from the distribution of resources and food to the scheduling of medical procedures - it will become less and less possible to turn them off - replace one with another - but soon that will be automatic - The real myth here is that there will always be a 'kill-switch' - you could alwys turn it off - Would you bet your like on that :?:
This was not your scenario. Your scenario suggests an uber-mind which has executive control over all of these integrated processes. What evidence do you offer that such an uber-mind could evolve within such a network, bearing in mind that I don't absolutely reject the possibility? A mind has absolute control over the way it processes its own input and such an absolute control is logically impossible if other (human) minds are continuously interacting with it. I assume you're not suggesting that such an uber-mind will also be able to control the minds of humans, in which case all we need do is don our tinfoil hats.
UniversalAlien wrote:As a hypothetical afterthought - If hypothetical aliens with a technology and intelligence far beyond yours were to come
upon the Planet Earth, they could hack in to the internet and take complete control of the species Man by using the grid already operating - And have complete control of the Planet before Man new what was happening - Would be like taking control of your neighborhood ant colony - the ants would have no idea what was happening.
On the other hand they might have more interesting things to do with their time.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:55 am

quoting Obvious Leo:
This was not your scenario. Your scenario suggests an uber-mind which has executive control over all of these integrated processes. What evidence do you offer that such an uber-mind could evolve within such a network, bearing in mind that I don't absolutely reject the possibility? A mind has absolute control over the way it processes its own input and such an absolute control is logically impossible if other (human) minds are continuously interacting with it. I assume you're not suggesting that such an uber-mind will also be able to control the minds of humans, in which case all we need do is don our tinfoil hats.
Yes, an evolving uber mind is still in the realm of speculative sci-fi - no proof or evidence that it is even possible.

But that is not what I'm proposing here - I'm saying that 'deliberate' Human {aliens are still hypothetical} endeavor for power and control is in fact creating this uber mind - They tell me there is now operating in the state of UTAH {USA] a giant complex of computers operated by NSA [the US intelligence agency that analyzes data] - And anyone naive enough to believe they set this up just so they could do simple things like monitor phone calls and emails - is probably more than just naive.

I'm saying "The War of the Worlds' might be going on right now and until I know for sure who is in control - anything goes,
aliens, control freaks of all sorts, mad scientists, etc., ets.

And when people like BIl Gates, and Elon Musk start warning us about the dangers of Ai Its time to see the situation is as
dangerous as any proposed by sci-fi and now it is real.

Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, and Bill Gates Warn About Artificial Intelligence
“Success in creating AI would be the biggest event in human history,” wrote Stephen Hawking in an op-ed, which appeared in The Independent in 2014. “Unfortunately, it might also be the last, unless we learn how to avoid the risks. In the near term, world militaries are considering autonomous-weapon systems that can choose and eliminate targets.” Professor Hawking added in a 2014 interview with BBC, “humans, limited by slow biological evolution, couldn’t compete and would be superseded by A.I.”

Elon Musk called the prospect of artificial intelligence “our greatest existential threat” in a 2014 interview with MIT students at the AeroAstro Centennial Symposium. “I’m increasingly inclined to think that there should be some regulatory oversight, maybe at the national and international level, just to make sure that we don’t do something very foolish.” Mr. Musk cites his decision to invest in the Artificial Intelligence firm, DeepMind, as a means to “just keep an eye on what’s going on with artificial intelligence. I think there is potentially a dangerous outcome there.”

Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates has also expressed concerns about Artificial Intelligence. During a Q&A session on Reddit in January 2015, Mr. Gates said, “I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence. First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don’t understand why some people are not concerned.”
See whole aritcl here:
http://observer.com/2015/08/stephen-haw ... elligence/

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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:07 am

UniversalAlien wrote: Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, and Bill Gates Warn About Artificial Intelligence
Who gives a fuck what these guys think? None of them are experts in the philosophy of mind so why not just ask your local butcher?

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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:13 am

Obvious Leo wrote:
UniversalAlien wrote: Stephen Hawking, Elon Musk, and Bill Gates Warn About Artificial Intelligence
Who gives a fuck what these guys think? None of them are experts in the philosophy of mind so why not just ask your local butcher?
And what does the philosophy of mind have to do with a machine which doesn't even have a mind in a way we conceive of mind to be but still ends up in control of those philosophical minds saying you can't control me because you have no mind :?:

Again the corollary question is of the limits of philosophical inquiry - When is philosophy asking a relevant question as to the nature of 'whatever' and when is philosophy no more than speculative fantasy having no more validity than the science fiction I still find entertaining. :?:

Obvious Leo
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:58 am

Science fiction can be both entertaining and thought provoking but I suggest it is probably not an appropriate genre for an exploration into the nature of mind.

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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by osgart » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:22 am

with artificial intelligence you can simulate everything we are only make it more powerful than us. Even being aware can be simulated. The mind is more the soul than the brain it exists in extra dimensions.

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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:09 am

There is no artificial intelligence and it's not been proven that a mind can run on any substrate than meat so far.

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Greta
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Greta » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:39 am

Another question: Is having a mind necessary to achieve goals in a flexible manner? The following question is whether achieving that flexibility in itself in the emergence of consciousness. My answers are yes and no, respectively.

Is mind necessary? Microbes and insects display highly complex behaviours that result in collective achievements that you would not think possible from observing behaviours of individuals (then again, who'd infer all that humanity has done from one individual?).

Consider how ants, with just tiny brains, create many-chambered nests with specialised functions - a hatchery chamber for the queen ant, worker ant chambers, "creches" in which larvae are cared for, chambers for food storage, chambers for aphid farming, chambers for waste, and sleeping chambers for workers. Consider how much more still that AI, programmed with a portion of human intelligence, could achieve without any emotion or qualia. Hopefully their prime directives and algorithms will be able to follow their own evolutionary long after the Sun has baked the Earth's surface dry. There's certainly no need for consciousness for entities to evolve, not even a need to be alive, as per current definitions.

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