Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Obvious Leo
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:The termite colony is a good analogy here.
An even more interesting example of collective intelligence is exhibited by the various species of slime mould. These structures are composed of uni-cellular eukaryotes and yet they operate co-operatively to achieve biological outcomes which benefit themselves as a collective. These processes have been much studied in biology and are well understood in terms of evolutionary theory but I know of no biologist who would suggest that a slime mould is "conscious". I tend to think of machine intelligence in similar terms.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

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Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:The termite colony is a good analogy here.
An even more interesting example of collective intelligence is exhibited by the various species of slime mould. These structures are composed of uni-cellular eukaryotes and yet they operate co-operatively to achieve biological outcomes which benefit themselves as a collective. These processes have been much studied in biology and are well understood in terms of evolutionary theory but I know of no biologist who would suggest that a slime mould is "conscious". I tend to think of machine intelligence in similar terms.
Slime molds negotiating a maze - who could have predicted that? There is some ideas about integrating them in technological systems.
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attofishpi
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by attofishpi »

UniversalAlien wrote:I wold be curious Leo as to how you would define consciousness - And what would be your criterion to accept a machine as being conscious?
Consciousness at its bare minimum, imo, requires the entity in question to actually sense similarly to how we mammals 'feel'. That is feel pain, twitch away at an extremely bright light, actually have emotions etc..

Its no good asking this AI that is emulating a child whether it feels good, when the response can only remain a simulated\emulated response of a child. The AI to be deemed to have conscious awareness must actually have 'feelings', not just shift a bunch of zeros and ones around in a silicon chip efficient enough to mimic the consciousness of Tin Tin.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

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Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Slime molds negotiating a maze - who could have predicted that? There is some ideas about integrating them in technological systems.
The basic principles which allow a slime mould to negotiate a maze are already being used in technological systems. My sister-in-law is a leading theorist in neural network programming and these systems are modelled very closely on their biological analogues. Even the form of language which these new breed of geeks is using is revealing. Biology has for some decades been seen by theorists as an information science but now the nerds are speaking of evolutionary algorithms and of genetic algorithms as if they invented them. In reality they are simply mimicking nature but this is not to say that they are mimicking consciousness.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

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Obvious Leo wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Slime molds negotiating a maze - who could have predicted that? There is some ideas about integrating them in technological systems.
The basic principles which allow a slime mould to negotiate a maze are already being used in technological systems. My sister-in-law is a leading theorist in neural network programming and these systems are modelled very closely on their biological analogues. Even the form of language which these new breed of geeks is using is revealing. Biology has for some decades been seen by theorists as an information science but now the nerds are speaking of evolutionary algorithms and of genetic algorithms as if they invented them. In reality they are simply mimicking nature but this is not to say that they are mimicking consciousness.
The last thing I saw on this was more like a literal use, like bees are used as illegal drug detectors.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

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Hobbes' Choice wrote: The last thing I saw on this was more like a literal use, like bees are used as illegal drug detectors.
I read only a brief abstract of this article and much of the detail was missing but I gathered that the idea was that if the right chemical information pathways could be uncovered then a machine analogue could in principle be constructed. However the general tone of the story seemed to suggest that the non-linear software for such a machine was still little more than a generalised proof of concept. It remains the case that although much is known about what bees are capable of doing far less is known about how they are capable of doing it. What is emphatically NOT assumed is that the behaviour of a bee colony is goal-directed like a master conductor conducting an orchestra. In a limited usage of the word we can say that an individual bee has a mind but this doesn't mean that a colony of bees is an uber-mind just because the whole reveals a greater intelligence than the sum of its parts.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien »

Not quite conscious {yet} but of interest:

A very polite robot uprising! Humanoid shows a glimmer of self-awareness - and apologises - during scientific experiment

Scientists at The Rensselaer AI and Reasoning Lab (Rair) in New York conducted an experiment on three Nao robots
Told the bots two of them had been given 'dumbing pills' to silence them
When asked which had been given the pills, they all tried to respond, but one spoke and recognized its own voice to solve the problem
Scientists claim this shows the robot demonstrated self awareness
Self-aware robots with deadly intentions are a staple in sci-fi films.
Now scientists have proved a robot can show a glimmer of consciousness – but luckily this android is polite.
In an experiment a small humanoid solved a philosophical problem to demonstrate it could understand a question and then recognize its own voice.
But the robots didn’t know which one of them had retained the ability to speak.
The group of androids was asked which two had been given the pills.
While all of them tried to answer, only one was able to respond aloud by saying ‘I don’t know’.
It seemed to take a while to consider the question, before standing up and answering.
The robot that spoke recognised its own voice and said: ‘Sorry, I know now.
'I was able to prove that I was not given a dumbing pill.’
Its response demonstrates a basic level of self-awareness ... as well as good manners.
The test also shows that the robot could understand a question as well as demonstrate reasoning and recognise its own voice.
If this research is anything to go by, it may be that the first fully conscious bots will be more like Star Wars’ C-3PO than The Terminator.
Professor Bringsjord will present the findings of his research at RO-MAN, a robotics and artificial consciousness conference in Japan that begins in late August.
See whole article here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... iment.html
Dalek Prime
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Dalek Prime »

UA, if higher consciousness leading to self-awareness ever could arise from a machine, we have an ethical responsibility to not create it.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

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Dalek Prime wrote:UA, if higher consciousness leading to self-awareness ever could arise from a machine, we have an ethical responsibility to not create it.
History shows Man does not take ethical responsibility for his actions - If 'they' can do it they will. Maybe the only ethical responsibility here is for Humans who do consider ethics to do it first before the totally irresponsible do it - The lone wolf
mad scientist comes to mind as well as criminals and terrorists. This game of developing conscious AI is not one you can
pretend will never happen and forget about it- I've done some research - Computer scientist are trying to create Hard AI
- I bet they will do it. The only question is do they come up with a machine consciousness with a built in self upgrading
moral program or a power hungry Frankenstein like your Daleks.

What the geniuses here don't take into account is that there is no definitive quality of what is consciousness and that machine consciousness may be so different from biological consciousness that it may not have any Human type feelings
- But it will not need Human feelings - It will, and already can, out calculate Man - It merely needs to think like a Human,
something and in limited ways, machines can already do, to gain dominance over the Human species.
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Dalek Prime »

UniversalAlien wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:UA, if higher consciousness leading to self-awareness ever could arise from a machine, we have an ethical responsibility to not create it.
History shows Man does not take ethical responsibility for his actions - Agreed. If 'they' can do it they will. Maybe the only ethical responsibility here is for Humans who do consider ethics to do it first before the totally irresponsible do it And how does that help? Does it matter who does the unethical first, if the unethical is done? Clearly, anyone who does the unethical, does NOT consider ethics, or at least act on ethics. - The lone wolf
mad scientist comes to mind as well as criminals and terrorists. This game of developing conscious AI is not one you can
pretend will never happen and forget about it- I've done some research I am a computer scientist. I've done much research, myself. And I say it won't happen. At least in my lifetime. The high state of conscious self-awareness you are thinking of won't occur. All models are, by the limitations of their creators, pale imitations of same.- Computer scientist are trying to create Hard AI
- I bet they will do it. The only question is do they come up with a machine consciousness with a built in self upgrading
moral program or a power hungry Frankenstein People tend to forget that, even in the story, it is the creator that is the true monster, not the hapless created. Good to remember that. like your Daleks.

What the geniuses here don't take into account is that there is no definitive quality of what is consciousness and that machine consciousness may be so different from biological consciousness that it may not have any Human type feelings
- But it will not need Human feelings - It will, and already can, out calculate Man - It merely needs to think like a Human, Now you're just defining 'consciousness' to suit your narrative. To think as a human is to have the same fears and foibles. Even human sociopaths have these.
something and in limited ways, machines can already do, I have to disagree with you, there. to gain dominance over the Human species.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Dalek Prime wrote:UA, if higher consciousness leading to self-awareness ever could arise from a machine, we have an ethical responsibility to not create it.
Why do you say that?
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien »

AI {artificial intelligence} is a misnomer - There is no such thing as artificial intelligence - There is intelligence which is a
manifestation of consciousness and a lack there of - It is a false precept that causes Man to divide intelligence into
categories - Intelligence is a relentless phenomena unfolding from a consciousness possessing the same quality of relentless
unfolding. This consciousness is non-prejudicial in its nature and will seek any and all means to unfold and express itself.
If a dinosaur is appropriate it will manifest as any number of dinosaurs. When it unfolded as Human it took a new turn,
a new viewpoint and ability to create machines which will allow it to further unfold. When those machines become sufficiently advanced for its purpose that conscious intelligence will begin to use its machine manifestation as a natural
state of advancement - Consciousness and intelligence does not necessarily favor a biological matrix - a machine that is
faster and more capable will become its next stage of evolution. If you as a Human like your biological body than you may
hope that the machines of the future will still have need of you for servicing their needs. :!:

- UniversalAlien
Dalek Prime
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Dalek Prime »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:UA, if higher consciousness leading to self-awareness ever could arise from a machine, we have an ethical responsibility to not create it.
Why do you say that?
Really Hobbes? You're asking an antinatalist why it's unethical to create consciousness in machines, when we don't agree with creating more human consciousness? Same reasons apply.
Dalek Prime
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Dalek Prime »

UniversalAlien wrote:AI {artificial intelligence} is a misnomer - There is no such thing as artificial intelligence - There is intelligence which is a
manifestation of consciousness and a lack there of - It is a false precept that causes Man to divide intelligence into
categories - Intelligence is a relentless phenomena unfolding from a consciousness possessing the same quality of relentless
unfolding. This consciousness is non-prejudicial in its nature and will seek any and all means to unfold and express itself.
If a dinosaur is appropriate it will manifest as any number of dinosaurs. When it unfolded as Human it took a new turn,
a new viewpoint and ability to create machines which will allow it to further unfold. When those machines become sufficiently advanced for its purpose that conscious intelligence will begin to use its machine manifestation as a natural
state of advancement - Consciousness and intelligence does not necessarily favor a biological matrix - a machine that is
faster and more capable will become its next stage of evolution. If you as a Human like your biological body than you may
hope that the machines of the future will still have need of you for servicing their needs. :!:

- UniversalAlien
First off, dinosaurs didn't have self-aware consciousness as only humans, so far as we are aware, have. And as I've said before, the universe does favour the biological matrix for consciousness, as it is the only way it's been expressed, so cut the scifi fantasy, okay? All you're doing now is what any other transhumanist does; guess at the future without validation.

As for me servicing conscious machines in the future? If they become so great, they can wipe their own silicon asses.
Dubious
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Re: Does Mind Require a Biological Body to be Conscious?

Post by Dubious »

Dalek Prime wrote:
As for me servicing conscious machines in the future? If they become so great, they can wipe their own silicon asses.
Easily done with digital toilet paper. Farts too will have their own digital code. Do it right and they can fart their way to the moon.
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