Proposition (2)

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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waechter418
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Proposition (2)

Post by waechter418 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:14 pm

Consciousness is a self-complementary continuum stimulated by Will & Love.

duszek
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by duszek » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:11 pm

And people who hate do they have consciousness too ?

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Bill Wiltrack
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Bill Wiltrack » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:24 pm

.


Who's this Will guy?




.

Skip
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Skip » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:35 pm

Matt Damon

Obvious Leo
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:05 pm

waechter418 wrote:Consciousness is a self-complementary continuum stimulated by Will & Love.
I'll bet this came out of a fortune cookie on Xmas day. Some people can get a whole year's supply of wisdom out of one of those, although personally I prefer bumper stickers.

Skip
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Skip » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:16 pm

OMG - and the Chine new year is yet to come
“I am the seasoned traveler
Of the Labyrinth.
The genius of alacrity,
Wizard of the impossible.
My brilliance is yet unmatched
In its originality.
My heart’s filled with potent magic
That could cast a hundred spells.
I am put together
For mine own pleasure
I AM THE MONKEY.”

Obvious Leo
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Obvious Leo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:38 pm

Possibly a bit too deep for a simple country lad, skip. I have a preference for more prosaic wisdom such as: If it sounds like bullshit it probably is.

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Greta
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Greta » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:15 am

@ waechter418

There are seven billion humans. Each represents a point of view of the universe in a particular relative place and time. Your POV at a particular place and time turns out to be Proposition (2). Not only will you continue to produce new propositions, so every other piece of reality (ie. human being) will have their own observations that are based on their circumstances.

The OP definition is too broad IMO. Consciousness is just one of many other systems that is self-sustaining. All systems necessarily operate on continua - being more or less large, fast, complex, and so forth. All motile organisms, conscious or not(?), at least have the will to survive.

On the other hand, "love" is too narrow a term. The broader dynamic is attraction. duszek asked about people who hate. Hate is actually a bonding force, tying two entities together, which of course is why it's said that the true opposite to love is disinterest, not hate. Predatory behaviour is also attractive.

Love is obviously an attractive dynamic too, but all of these things are part of broader phenomena. Every entity in reality - from a gas cloud in space to a dog - displays some level of sensitivity to its surroundings. Each entity has the potential to react to the stimuli in its environment. So consciousness is a subset of what is can be thought of as a spectrum of reactivity.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Obvious Leo » Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:11 am

Greta. We share the same broad definition of cognition as advocated by the Santiago school, which is in terms of interactive information transfer. Thus the moon orbits the earth because it cognises its presence through gravity. The tree cognises the presence of water in the soil and the roots grow towards its source, etc. However your mention of organisms with motility is particularly relevant because at this point cognition morphs into true consciousness as we more ordinarily understand the term. An organism with true motility has a brain and a central nervous system which allows it to choose the behaviour which is most appropriate to meet its environmental circumstances and provided its choice is not a fatal one it can learn from the consequences of its own behaviour. Consciousness is thus a spectrum phenomenon common to all organisms with such a centralised information processing network and not something which is exclusive to humans. The sophisticated processing network which we seem to be so arrogantly proud of is certainly quantitatively different from that of the so-called "lesser" animals but we indulge in hubris if we then go on to conclude that it is in any sense qualitatively different. It is also important to maintain a distinction between consciousness as an information processing network and our awareness of consciousness, which is a yet higher order of cognitive function. Awareness and consciousness are not synonymous terms because the vast bulk of our cognitive activity takes place beneath the level at which we become aware of it. However the most interesting thing about awareness is that it always comes after the cognitive event. Awareness is an observation and it is quite impossible to observe something until after it's actually happened. Likewise we cannot become aware of having thought a thought until after we've actually thought it, even though we intuitively conflate these two quite distinct brain functions. This was was very elegantly shown empirically by Benjamin Libet and with the advent of MRI the different neural networks being deployed are becoming better understood.

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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Dubious » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:23 am

Skip wrote:OMG - and the Chine new year is yet to come
“I am the seasoned traveler
Of the Labyrinth.
The genius of alacrity,
Wizard of the impossible.
My brilliance is yet unmatched
In its originality.
My heart’s filled with potent magic
That could cast a hundred spells.
I am put together
For mine own pleasure
I AM THE MONKEY.”
Monkey ranks ninth position in the Chinese Zodiac. They are cheerful and energetic by nature and usually represent flexibility. People under the sign of the Monkey are wise, intelligent, confident, charismatic, loyal, inventive and have leadership. The weaknesses of the Monkeys are being egotistical, arrogant, crafty, restless and snobbish.

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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Dalek Prime » Fri Jan 01, 2016 7:59 pm

waechter418 wrote:Consciousness is a self-complementary continuum stimulated by Will & Love.
I've farted more rational statements than this.

Obvious Leo
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Obvious Leo » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:18 pm

Dalek Prime wrote:
waechter418 wrote:Consciousness is a self-complementary continuum stimulated by Will & Love.
I've farted more rational statements than this.
Welcome back, Dalek. Does this mean that you know what this statement means or does it mean that it sounds like it came out of somebody's arse?

Dubious
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Dubious » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:47 pm

Not hard to figure out. It's just too poetic to be real, is all.

Dalek Prime
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by Dalek Prime » Fri Jan 01, 2016 9:47 pm

Obvious Leo wrote:
Dalek Prime wrote:
waechter418 wrote:Consciousness is a self-complementary continuum stimulated by Will & Love.
I've farted more rational statements than this.
Welcome back, Dalek. Does this mean that you know what this statement means or does it mean that it sounds like it came out of somebody's arse?
Thank you Leo. I meant the latter arse bit.

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waechter418
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Re: Proposition (2)

Post by waechter418 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:56 pm

Due to their weak constitution (inferiority complex?) mental ghetto prowlers tend to trample on the most simple statements.

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