Qualia

[raw_thought]

Scroll back. So you are saying that there is a physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle?
That is the only question. The fact that one can hook up a screen to a computer and see a triangle,has nothing to do with the fact that there is no triangle in the computer.
Similarly, I suppose one could create a machine that could read the electrical impulses in the brain of someone visualizing a triangle, translate those signals into a triangle that gets displayed on a screen. However, that does not alter the fact ( and the only fact pertinent to my argument ) that there is no physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Scroll back. So you are saying that there is a physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle?
That is the only question. The fact that one can hook up a screen to a computer and see a triangle,has nothing to do with the fact that there is no triangle in the computer.
Similarly, I suppose one could create a machine that could read the electrical impulses in the brain of someone visualizing a triangle, translate those signals into a triangle that gets displayed on a screen. However, that does not alter the fact ( and the only fact pertinent to my argument ) that there is no physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle.

I am saying I read somewhere that there is a network of neurons in the brain, similar to a LCD screen. When the eyes view a triangle, *boom* the network of neurons displays a triangle the same as a LCD screen would, in physical space.

[raw_thought]

Interesting! Please provide a link that shows that there is a physical triangle in your brain if you visualize one. Note, that I am not talking about seeing (with your eyes) a physical triangle. I know that the photons from a triangle that you see with your eyes enter the brain in a triangular shape. That is why I stipulated VISUALIZED.

[raw_thought]

Or visualized anything. The odds that there is a paper that focuses on triangles is slim. For example, if you visualize a bear is there a paper that proves that there is a physical image of a furry mammal in your brain?

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Interesting! Please provide a link that shows that there is a physical triangle in your brain if you visualize one. Note, that I am not talking about seeing (with your eyes) a physical triangle. I know that the photons from a triangle that you see with your eyes enter the brain in a triangular shape. That is why I stipulated VISUALIZED.

"Read somewhere" should have given a clue. I don't have the link anymore. Got anything that says different? I'll agree to disagree. And yes the bear thing is what I am talking about, there is a physical representation of a bear in your brain, not just in your eyes.

[raw_thought]

I think that it is extremely counterintuitive to believe that when I visualize anything there is a physical image of it in my brain. What is that image composed of? Do the neurons fire in the shape of a furry mammal when I visualize a bear?

[raw_thought]

Scroll back. So you are saying that there is a physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle?
That is the only question. The fact that one can hook up a screen to a computer and see a triangle,has nothing to do with the fact that there is no triangle in the computer.
Similarly, I suppose one could create a machine that could read the electrical impulses in the brain of someone visualizing a triangle, translate those signals into a triangle that gets displayed on a screen. However, that does not alter the fact ( and the only fact pertinent to my argument ) that there is no physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle.

I am saying I read somewhere that there is a network of neurons in the brain, similar to a LCD screen. When the eyes view a triangle, *boom* the network of neurons displays a triangle the same as a LCD screen would, in physical space.

Note that you said, "when the EYES view a triangle." In other words you were not referring to a visualized triangle.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

I think that it is extremely counterintuitive to believe that when I visualize anything there is a physical image of it in my brain. What is that image composed of? Do the neurons fire in the shape of a furry mammal when I visualize a bear?

yeah like for the 9th time. it's like an LED screen in your brain.

there's nothing counterintuitive about it. If you dont believe such a neuronal array of pixels in the brain exists that's fine. But in what was is the idea counterintuitive?

EYES shmeyez the screen applies to cakes and pies. Imagination or otherwise.

[raw_thought]

Interesting! Please provide a link that shows that there is a physical triangle in your brain if you visualize one. Note, that I am not talking about seeing (with your eyes) a physical triangle. I know that the photons from a triangle that you see with your eyes enter the brain in a triangular shape. That is why I stipulated VISUALIZED.

"Read somewhere" should have given a clue. I don't have the link anymore. Got anything that says different? I'll agree to disagree. And yes the bear thing is what I am talking about, there is a physical representation of a bear in your brain, not just in your eyes.

So when I daydream about skydiving there is a physical image of a parachute etc in my brain? My neurons are firing in the shape of a parachute?

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

Interesting! Please provide a link that shows that there is a physical triangle in your brain if you visualize one. Note, that I am not talking about seeing (with your eyes) a physical triangle. I know that the photons from a triangle that you see with your eyes enter the brain in a triangular shape. That is why I stipulated VISUALIZED.

"Read somewhere" should have given a clue. I don't have the link anymore. Got anything that says different? I'll agree to disagree. And yes the bear thing is what I am talking about, there is a physical representation of a bear in your brain, not just in your eyes.

So when I daydream about skydiving there is a physical image of a parachute etc in my brain? My neurons are firing in the shape of a parachute?

yes

[raw_thought]

There is a huge difference between an imagined triangle and one that you see with your eyes. For example, if I am in Egypt and look at a pyramid, the light enters my eyes in a triangular shape. I thought I had already explained why I stipulated, visualized.

[GreatandWiseTrixie]

There is a huge difference between an imagined triangle and one that you see with your eyes. For example, if I am in Egypt and look at a pyramid, the light enters my eyes in a triangular shape. I thought I had already explained why I stipulated, visualized.

What are you even talking about? The difference is because imagination takes data from memory cells and data may not be exactly accurate. Its still rendered in the same LCD screen. Data from eyes is also adjusted, filtered, and rendered to the same LCD screen. LCD screen being the brain's nueronal pixel array.

[raw_thought]

"So when I daydream about skydiving there is a physical image of a parachute etc in my brain? My neurons are firing in the shape of a parachute? "
ME
Yes
GreatandWiseTrixie
We will just have to agree to disagree. I find that idea absurd. However, if you can find that site that proves such a contentious proposition, I will be amazed and fascinated.

[raw_thought]

There is a huge difference between an imagined triangle and one that you see with your eyes. For example, if I am in Egypt and look at a pyramid, the light enters my eyes in a triangular shape. I thought I had already explained why I stipulated, visualized.

What are you even talking about? The difference is because imagination takes data from memory cells and data may not be exactly accurate. Its still rendered in the same LCD screen. Data from eyes is also adjusted, filtered, and rendered to the same LCD screen. LCD screen being the brain's nueronal pixel array.

So you are saying that when I visualize a triangle, I remove a physical triangle from a memory cell and let it take center stage? So even when I am not visualizing a triangle there are physical images of triangles, bears, kitchen sinks...in my brain?

[hammock]

. . . Similarly, I suppose one could create a machine that could read the electrical impulses in the brain of someone visualizing a triangle, translate those signals into a triangle that gets displayed on a screen.

Yes, already more or less accomplished: Scientists Reconstruct Brains' Visions Into Digital Video

However, that does not alter the fact ( and the only fact pertinent to my argument ) that there is no physical triangle in a person's brain when he/she visualizes a triangle. [...earlier...] The fact that one can hook up a screen to a computer and see a triangle, has nothing to do with the fact that there is no triangle in the computer.

But if activated pixel elements forming a triangle on a computer screen are not collectively experiencing themselves as a triangle, then what is the relevance of whether or a not such a pattern could literally be found in the brain? One would still have to explain how that configuration was manifesting visually to itself as a triangle. Or how it was being experienced as such by other brain processes. Or how there was this publicly undetectable, astonishing novelty (the private "showing" of a triangle) supervening on the neural instantiation of a triangle or other scattered activity. I mean, if all dynamic organizations in the universe had a qualitative presence or manifestation associated with them which also literally resembles or conforms to the physical structure, then it's a great requirement that you need a triangle in the brain. But if such panexperientialism is not case (and we'd probably both agree that traditional materialism does not tolerate any variety of such), then what does it matter what pattern the neural activity is adhering to? The mental appearance of a triangle could have a rippling circle as its correlate in the brain, and it would still be just as much a brutely "magical" intruder upon the limitations of any dogmatic materialism, or a disconnected add-on to current physics.