Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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HexHammer
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by HexHammer » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:26 pm

pljamesone@att.net wrote:I would think our experiences in our life, create our consciousness, from our mind. I still do not understand how the brain works...yet. To me the word conscious means alive. Paul
This is talk from a glaringly ignorant perspective, we're here to do philosophy, not cozy chat.

Philosophy = love of wisdom ..glaringly ignorant talk isn't exactly wisdom.

Go read up on intelligences, neurology etc, else you will forever more stay in helpless ignorance!

Gee
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Gee » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:24 am

Marsh8472;

You are confusing me. Your title states that you are interested in proving that consciousness exists outside of the brain, but your entire thread is about the brain. That is a lot like trying to prove that trees exist outside of the house by studying the sofa and the cutlery.
marsh8472 wrote:I've been trying to work on a proof that the consciousness we're experiencing is probably not happening from our brains.

1) Our consciousness is caused by a series of computations.

2) Any computations within our brains can be represented elsewhere in an infinite number (or at least an extremely high finite number) of ways.

3) Since the information processed by our brain at any given moment can be represented elsewhere in an infinite number of ways, each of those consciousnesses would feel indistinguishable from our own.

4) The probability of my consciousness existing within my actual brain given each copy of me will feel like the me is 1/(total possible places copies of my consciousness exists). Which is essentially 0.

5) Therefore the consciousness I am experiencing at any given moment is most likely not the one being caused by my brain
There is an easier way to do this. First, do we have any evidence that consciousness can exist outside of the body? Yes.

What is consciousness?

1. At it's essence, consciousness is information, that we are in some way aware of.

What are bonds?

2. Bonds are connections between people, and other life forms, that cause a sharing of information in an unknown manner, especially information relative to emotion. Bonds are necessary to human life.

How is emotion relative to bonds?

3. Emotion is one aspect of consciousness that works between things rather than working exclusively within, and emotion is necessary to create bonds.

How does the mind process or absorb emotion?

4. Emotion is absorbed into the sub/unconscious, Super Ego, aspect of mind, so it is often vague and difficult to describe until it is crystallized into knowledge in the conscious, Ego, aspect of mind.

Interesting note: The sub/unconscious aspect of mind has no understanding of cause and effect or time and space. My thought is that this is because it is unaware of physical reality.

Bonds are a recognized reality that science does not dispute. Bonds are necessary to life and transfer information from one person to another without the necessity of using the five senses. This transferring of information does not seem to have a limit as to time or space, and we have no idea of how this transfer is accomplished.

Conclusion: The contents of two containers can not connect magically, so if bonds exist, consciousness can not be solely within the body or brain.

Most scientists today deny qualia, feelings and emotion, because it does not work within the parameters that they have set for their theories. Nonetheless, feelings and emotion do exist and are part of consciousness, maybe the most important part.

Gee

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Arising_uk
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:51 pm

Gee wrote:There is an easier way to do this. First, do we have any evidence that consciousness can exist outside of the body? Yes. ...
Such as?

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Gee » Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:38 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Gee wrote:There is an easier way to do this. First, do we have any evidence that consciousness can exist outside of the body? Yes. ...
Such as?
Bonds. Emotion.

Gee

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Arising_uk
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Arising_uk » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:06 am

Gee wrote:Bonds. Emotion.
How are these 'consciousness' and what body do they exist outside of? That is, can you show me an independently existing bond or emotion?

Ginkgo
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Ginkgo » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:28 pm

Gee wrote: There is an easier way to do this. First, do we have any evidence that consciousness can exist outside of the body? Yes.



Most scientists today deny qualia, feelings and emotion, because it does not work within the parameters that they have set for their theories. Nonetheless, feelings and emotion do exist and are part of consciousness, maybe the most important part.

Gee
I particularly like these two quotes. However, I will make it short because my responses will raise more questions than answers.

An explanation for the evidence is put forward by a number of people including, Hameroff, Penrose and Chopra. The extend to which we accept the evidence is a different matter.

Basically the argument is that one of the functions of the brain is to work like a quantum computer. Quantum computations are carried out in the microtubules in the brain. In fact all living things have microtubules, even single cell organisms. Many living things don't have neurons and synapses Such things are reserved for higher functioning organisms with brains. Generally speaking the lack of 'higher functions' doesn't seem to be a problem.

The brain makes use of the same processes found at the finest scale of the universe, usually know as the Planck scale. At this fine scale of the universe we find superposition and entanglement states. The argument certainly is that such things as qualia (emotions) are a fundamental property of embedded quantum information. As fundamental as say, spin and charge.

There seems to be a bit of an explanatory gap in the argument. In my view it is correct to say the brain functions like a quantum computer and MAKES USE OF quantum computations found at the Planck scale. To me this suggests there is no fundamental distinction when it comes to the brain and the universe. Both make use of the same processes because they are the same.

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by cirin » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:09 am

Ginkgo wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
HexHammer wrote:OP seems more like wishful thinking that anything else. Produces from a skitzo mind.

Na it's not wishful thinking. It's something I just started thinking about. I don't know if it's true or not. That's where you come in... but maybe not.
marsh8472, are you aware that the latest research is moving towards the idea that the human brain carries out quantum computations. In other words, the early research suggests the human brain is more like a quantum computer than a classical computer. Naturally this doesn't exclude the possibility it actually performs both types of functions.

I just thought this might be of interest.
Science does not understand. The brain has a very low speed. Nevertheless, science continues to persistently defend a materialistic world view and study the material brain as Mind, not asking why the brain produces electric impulses. "Electric signals initiate a fusion of the synaptic vesicle and surrounding membrane, and neurotransmitters, having separated from nerve endings, and passed to nerve cells. Scientists from Copenhagen, Gottingen and Amsterdam universities have discovered that nerve impulse speeds to and from the brain move at 274 km per hour. Did you ever wonder why you react so quickly, when, for example, you strike your finger with a hammer? It is due to the unbelievable speed of nerve impulses".

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HexHammer
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by HexHammer » Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:26 am

cirin wrote:Science does not understand. The brain has a very low speed. Nevertheless, science continues to persistently defend a materialistic world view and study the material brain as Mind, not asking why the brain produces electric impulses. "Electric signals initiate a fusion of the synaptic vesicle and surrounding membrane, and neurotransmitters, having separated from nerve endings, and passed to nerve cells. Scientists from Copenhagen, Gottingen and Amsterdam universities have discovered that nerve impulse speeds to and from the brain move at 274 km per hour. Did you ever wonder why you react so quickly, when, for example, you strike your finger with a hammer? It is due to the unbelievable speed of nerve impulses".
A lot of facts mixed into incoherent nonsense and babble!

So why can't computers have a normal conversation with humans, even those retarded people can usually have a conversation above even the smartest of computers.

Dude, I think you are a "rain man" good amount of knowledge, but can't make sense of it.

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Ginkgo » Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:14 am

cirin wrote: Science does not understand. The brain has a very low speed. Nevertheless, science continues to persistently defend a materialistic world view and study the material brain as Mind, not asking why the brain produces electric impulses. "Electric signals initiate a fusion of the synaptic vesicle and surrounding membrane, and neurotransmitters, having separated from nerve endings, and passed to nerve cells. Scientists from Copenhagen, Gottingen and Amsterdam universities have discovered that nerve impulse speeds to and from the brain move at 274 km per hour. Did you ever wonder why you react so quickly, when, for example, you strike your finger with a hammer? It is due to the unbelievable speed of nerve impulses".

If science doesn't understand then why have you given us a scientific explanation?

Greylorn Ell
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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:29 pm

marsh8472 wrote:I've been trying to work on a proof that the consciousness we're experiencing is probably not happening from our brains. Maybe someone can tell me why this won't work, refine this for me, or point me in the direction of where this has already been talked about?

Here's the proof (what's in bold is the summary):

1) Our consciousness is caused by a series of computations.

The proof revolves around the idea of Information processing theory of consciousness which says our brain is like a computer and that our experience of consciousness and qualia is the result of information processing.
marsh,

The best way to refine your theory is to scrap it and try again, working from what is actually known about consciousness than iffy-shit that some AI theorists have made up.

I'm fairly conscious, much of the time, and am certain that it has nothing to do with computations. In fact, basic computations such as addition, multiplication, division, calculating square roots, etc, are the least conscious thing that my brain does, for those processes are managed entirely by rote memory, and while performing them without a calculator or slide rule, my conscious mind will usually divert onto something more interesting.

There is no way in which the brain is "like a computer," as you assert. It's memory mechanisms are entirely different. It operates in parallel, managing thousands of different processes simultaneously. Whatever "computations" it might perform are managed without the registers, accumulators, multiplier circuits, etc. found in a digital computer's CPU. Moreover, the brain is not genuinely digital. Research shows that information can be transmitted from one part of the brain to another without interconnected neurons, which suggests some form of analog standing-wave mechanism.

Since your first assertion is negatively established, anything you hang from it is irrelevant. Nonetheless, your apparent premise that consciousness is in some way distinct from brain is correct.

Greylorn

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Gee » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:58 pm

Arising;

Hi. I still owe you a post from the evolution thread, but I'm working on it -- when not distracted. (chuckle)
Arising_uk wrote:
Gee wrote:Bonds. Emotion.
How are these 'consciousness' and what body do they exist outside of? That is, can you show me an independently existing bond or emotion?
If they are not 'consciousness', then what are they?

I suspect that they are outside of all bodies.

Can you show me an independently existing thought?

Gee

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Greylorn Ell » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:36 am

Gee wrote:
Arising_uk wrote:
Gee wrote:Bonds. Emotion.
How are these 'consciousness' and what body do they exist outside of? That is, can you show me an independently existing bond or emotion?
If they are not 'consciousness', then what are they?

I suspect that they are outside of all bodies.

Can you show me an independently existing thought?

Gee
Gee,

Don't be absurd. No one can show you a thought of any kind. The best we can do by way of thought exchange is to express the tracings of thoughts in terms of linguistics or mathematics. Most of these expressions of thought are ignored, because people fear that their study will sacrifice the bullshit with which their brains have already been programmed. That was me, back when I was a practicing Catholic. Since everyone practices some variety of belief system, all are afraid to study anything that might invalidate their beliefs and perhaps send them back to school.

Other expressions of thought cannot be translated. If I tried to express ideas here in mathematical form, I'd have the same luck as if I wrote in Sanskrit.

And to address your question, "If they {emotions} are not 'consciousness', then what are they?", Nevermind that you are unlikely to challenge your opinions, emotions are a property of brains. Emotions are what motivate animal brains. Emotions give brains their motivations, and tell them how to react to various circumstances. Emotions are a brain's equivalent of a computer's programming.

In my earlier career I programmed digital computers to control observing instruments and the internal machines that made them work. The machines needed motivation, i.e. an inclination to behave in a certain way. I programmed their desires into them, just like my own brain and those of the birds feeding outside my window have been programmed with desires to feed, build nests, and get lucky now and then.

My instruments, mostly telescopes, were motivated to point themselves at astronomical objects and record intensity and wavelengths of light emitted from those objects. They were also motivated to protect themselves from damage. The one in orbit needed to close itself down when close to the sun. The one on land needed to shut down in daytime and in the presence of rain. In effect, I programmed these machines to fear bright lights and precipitation. Fear is an emotion. It is a sensible emotion, directing a machine or critter to behave in such a manner as to secure its survival.

None of the machines I programmed had the ability to reproduce itself, so I did not program them with the desire to get laid. Their power supply had been provided by external sources beyond their control, so I did not program them to obtain energy, or to "feed." Robots running on batteries, on the ground, must obtain energy to survive, and therefore some of them have been programmed to feed by inserting their mandibles into power outlets, or by adjusting their solar-energy arrays to optimal sun angles. They've been programmed to know when they are hungry, and to relieve their hunger. Emotion, coded into machines.

My instruments also needed to react to adverse circumstances when avoiding them (my strategy) did not work. Much more difficult than programming them with motivations, but certainly doable. Reactions are the consequence of programming, therefore of emotions.

Consciousness is an entirely different thing, and has nothing to do with the brain's programs (emotions) except that it must manage them, and ideally direct them to useful purpose. Like a rider on a horse must guide the animal from a higher level of consciousness than the animal possesses, or find his ass parked in the middle of a cactus plant. Of all people on this forum, you must know these things at some level.

Unfortunately, you've settled upon the notion that emotion rules, and done so w/o honest study. No fixing that from the outside.

Greylorn

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Gee » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:09 am

Greylorn Ell wrote: Gee,

Don't be absurd. No one can show you a thought of any kind.

Of course it is absurd. Sometimes, Greylorn, you have to read my post, the post that I am responding to, and then think about it. Arising likes to ask questions, probably trying to emulate Socrates, but often Arising is simply on a 'fishing expedition'. I decided to turn his question back on him.
Greylorn Ell wrote:And to address your question, "If they {emotions} are not 'consciousness', then what are they?", Nevermind that you are unlikely to challenge your opinions, emotions are a property of brains. Emotions are what motivate animal brains. Emotions give brains their motivations, and tell them how to react to various circumstances. Emotions are a brain's equivalent of a computer's programming.

I know that this is the crap that science and neurology want me to swallow, but I can't. Here is reality; ALL species have a survival instinct; all instincts are motivated by emotion; all species do not have brains; therefore, emotions are not a property of brains. Emotions are a property of life.
Greylorn Ell wrote:My instruments, mostly telescopes, were motivated to point themselves at astronomical objects and record intensity and wavelengths of light emitted from those objects. They were also motivated to protect themselves from damage. The one in orbit needed to close itself down when close to the sun. The one on land needed to shut down in daytime and in the presence of rain. In effect, I programmed these machines to fear bright lights and precipitation. Fear is an emotion. It is a sensible emotion, directing a machine or critter to behave in such a manner as to secure its survival.

None of the machines I programmed had the ability to reproduce itself, so I did not program them with the desire to get laid. Their power supply had been provided by external sources beyond their control, so I did not program them to obtain energy, or to "feed." Robots running on batteries, on the ground, must obtain energy to survive, and therefore some of them have been programmed to feed by inserting their mandibles into power outlets, or by adjusting their solar-energy arrays to optimal sun angles. They've been programmed to know when they are hungry, and to relieve their hunger. Emotion, coded into machines.
I am going to be frank here. If indeed you programmed fear and hunger into a machine, then you programmed qualia into a machine -- qualia is experience, feeling, and emotion. If you did this, then you would not be typing in this forum, because you would be too busy giving lectures and writing books and signing autographs. I am not buying your interpretation of what you think you did.

Gee

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Gee » Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:16 am

Ginkgo wrote:An explanation for the evidence is put forward by a number of people including, Hameroff, Penrose and Chopra. The extend to which we accept the evidence is a different matter.

Basically the argument is that one of the functions of the brain is to work like a quantum computer. Quantum computations are carried out in the microtubules in the brain. In fact all living things have microtubules, even single cell organisms. Many living things don't have neurons and synapses Such things are reserved for higher functioning organisms with brains. Generally speaking the lack of 'higher functions' doesn't seem to be a problem.

The brain makes use of the same processes found at the finest scale of the universe, usually know as the Planck scale. At this fine scale of the universe we find superposition and entanglement states. The argument certainly is that such things as qualia (emotions) are a fundamental property of embedded quantum information. As fundamental as say, spin and charge.

There seems to be a bit of an explanatory gap in the argument. In my view it is correct to say the brain functions like a quantum computer and MAKES USE OF quantum computations found at the Planck scale. To me this suggests there is no fundamental distinction when it comes to the brain and the universe. Both make use of the same processes because they are the same.
Ginkgo;

I found this statement interesting, "In fact all living things have microtubules, even single cell organisms." So are microtubules just in living things, or are they in all matter? If not in all matter, are they in organic material? In viruses?

Gee

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Re: Proof for Consciousness existing outside our brains

Post by Ginkgo » Mon Jan 12, 2015 1:29 am

Gee wrote:
Ginkgo wrote: Ginkgo;

I found this statement interesting, "In fact all living things have microtubules, even single cell organisms." So are microtubules just in living things, or are they in all matter? If not in all matter, are they in organic material? In viruses?

Gee
I'm not a biologist, but I will try and answer your questions.

Microtubules are found within the cells of all living things. Naturally such things as rocks don't have microtubules

I don't think microtubules are found within the virus as such , but this doesn't mean a virus can't make use of microtubules of host cells.

Microtubules would be found in organic matter because organic matter is made up mainly dead cells. Microtubules carry out a number of important functions and one of these functions is cell division. The cell environment needs to be suitable in order for the microtubules can carry out their delicate quantum functions.

Someone with greater biological knowledge than myself would prove to be more illuminating.

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