Consciousness Discussed

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Ginkgo
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Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Ginkgo » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:11 pm

Blaggard wrote:
So are crows and almost all members of the Corvidus familly. Smart buggers science generally denotes intelligence in a rough body mass index to brain size, in which case crows are quite high on the list.
Yes, I know. Isn't it brilliant? Have you seen the u tube video of a crow making a hook out of a piece of wire and then fishing for a piece of meat in a test tube?

Seeing this tends to give the impression that a crow would pass the mirror test.

At the local golf course crows are pinching golf balls off the fairway. Wouldn't surprise me if someone found a hidden area where crows have built a mini golf course and are playing a few rounds with OUR golf balls.
Blaggard wrote:
Hameroff's theories are not widely accepted, but if there is some conscious quantum event it should be measurable, so he will have to do experiments.
Yes this is true. It is probably a long way from being provided. May not even be possible.
Blaggard wrote:
This sounds like some sort of Buddhist philosophy but again if this is the case it aught to be provable at some future date.
[/quote]

This is exactly what it is. Apparently Hameroff does converse with Deepak Chopra. No doubt they would have had their discussions posted somewhere.

Ginkgo
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Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Ginkgo » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:26 pm

Wyman wrote:

The simple organisms 'react' to stimulus, but do not perceive - they do not have sense organs, so there is no 'screen' upon which they can look. We also react to stimulus in many ways, but we also perceive. That is one major difference in gradation.
Yes, makes sense to me.
Wyman wrote:

The question is, is perception merely reaction to stimulus, or need there be a unifying mechanism that reacts to unified stimulus - i.e. something that does the unification and then reacts to it? (Simple organisms do not have to unify the influx of stimuli)
I think you are correct.
Wyman wrote:
Cameras and computers unify stimulus and can react to the unification (yes?). Here is a question I have. Can a computer, after reacting to stimulus according to a protocol (programmed algorithm), then interpret future stimuli according to a different, self created algorithm? That is, can a computer interpret stimulus 'on its own?' That would seem to me to be at least another sticking point in the gradation from mechanical reaction to awareness or consciousness.
You seem to be posting this as a conclusion. If so then I would say it would be a fair conclusion to make based on what you have said thus far.

As far as analogue processing is concerned what you have said is inescapable. I think this is why Hameroff wants to put most of his scientific eggs in the one basket. That basket being the quantum computer basket. It MAY be possible that in the future quantum computers can process stimuli on their own. Hameroff wants to draw the quantum analogy when it comes to all simple organisms. Their bodies have the ability to carry out quantum computations. When it comes to higher level organisms such as humans Hameroff wants to say that the brain acts like a quantum computer. He is not actually saying that the brain IS a quantum computer.

Wyman
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Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Wyman » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:50 am

I was actually asking non-rhetorical questions. I can at least imagine that a system of computers (which I have read is the model neurologists tend to use to describe the brain) which feed into one another could program each other according to some principle, thereby re-interpreting the incoming stimuli.

But here is another non-rhetorical question: what the heck is a quantum computer?

Ginkgo
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Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Ginkgo » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:12 pm

Wyman wrote:I was actually asking non-rhetorical questions. I can at least imagine that a system of computers (which I have read is the model neurologists tend to use to describe the brain) which feed into one another could program each other according to some principle, thereby re-interpreting the incoming stimuli.

But here is another non-rhetorical question: what the heck is a quantum computer?
www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer

At this stage only prototypes exist.

Blaggard
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Blaggard » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:34 pm

Ginkgo wrote:
Wyman wrote:I was actually asking non-rhetorical questions. I can at least imagine that a system of computers (which I have read is the model neurologists tend to use to describe the brain) which feed into one another could program each other according to some principle, thereby re-interpreting the incoming stimuli.

But here is another non-rhetorical question: what the heck is a quantum computer?
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer

At this stage only prototypes exist.

They have run a program on a series of quantum transistors based on ion traps it added two numbers. The problem atm is that to get stable ion traps at room temperature is almost impossible, so we're currently at the same stage computers were in the 20th century pre WWII.
Yes, I know. Isn't it brilliant? Have you seen the u tube video of a crow making a hook out of a piece of wire and then fishing for a piece of meat in a test tube?

Seeing this tends to give the impression that a crow would pass the mirror test.
They do pass the mirror test.

Ginkgo
Posts: 2544
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Ginkgo » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:54 pm

Blaggard wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:
Wyman wrote:I was actually asking non-rhetorical questions. I can at least imagine that a system of computers (which I have read is the model neurologists tend to use to describe the brain) which feed into one another could program each other according to some principle, thereby re-interpreting the incoming stimuli.

But here is another non-rhetorical question: what the heck is a quantum computer?
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer

At this stage only prototypes exist.

They have run a program on a series of quantum transistors based on ion traps it added two numbers. The problem atm is that to get stable ion traps at room temperature is almost impossible, so we're currently at the same stage computers were in the 20th century pre WWII.
Yes, I know. Isn't it brilliant? Have you seen the u tube video of a crow making a hook out of a piece of wire and then fishing for a piece of meat in a test tube?

Seeing this tends to give the impression that a crow would pass the mirror test.
They do pass the mirror test.


I am sure that at some stage in the future quantum computers will become a reality.

Crows passing the mirror test doesn't surprise me in the least. We have lots of crows where I live, so I get to observe them on a casual basis. Their behavior never ceases to amaze me.

Wyman
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Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Wyman » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:00 pm

'There exist quantum algorithms, such as Simon's algorithm, which run faster than any possible probabilistic classical algorithm.[8] Given sufficient computational resources, however, a classical computer could be made to simulate any quantum algorithm; quantum computation does not violate the Church–Turing thesis.[9]'

That's from wikipedia. The whole entry supporst the idea the quantum computers are capable of performing certain functions faster and more efficiently, but I didn't see anything that indicated a hope for some different kind of computation.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:54 pm

Ginkgo wrote:...
I am sure that at some stage in the future quantum computers will become a reality.
More likely some kind of nano-tech smart-matter implementing a form of reversible rod-logic first.
Crows passing the mirror test doesn't surprise me in the least. We have lots of crows where I live, so I get to observe them on a casual basis. Their behavior never ceases to amaze me.
Pretty good for dinosaurs eh!

Greylorn Ell
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Location: SE Arizona

Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Greylorn Ell » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:23 am

Wyman wrote:I would like to discuss the 'problem' of consciousness, if anyone would like to participate. I am one of those who don't see a problem. For instance, if there is a problem of consciousness, why is there not a problem of 'seeing?' We accept that our eyes receive light waves or photons and convert them into images in our brains. We accept that this is explained by science. We do not then claim, as philosophers, that there is a problem of seeing. What makes seeing different than consciousness?

I believe that the problem of consciousness stems from a confusion: we want to say that we are conscious of seeing something, or conscious of hearing something or conscious of imagining something. Then, we get confused over what the 'object' of consciousness is - is it the same (or of the same class/type) as the object of sight, hearing, etc.? Or is it some other kind of thing?

I maintain that the object of consciousness is not some other kind of thing than perceptions; rather, consciousness is just a general term describing the class of all perceptions. It is a proclivity to misuse such general concepts that creates confusion. To say that we are conscious of something (qualia, for instance) separate from that which we see (or hear or taste, etc.) is akin to saying, for instance, that when we see red and blue and green, we also see color; and then take 'color' as something more than just a general term.

Once those confusions are cleared up it, we are left with the question of what mechanism controls perception - that is, what makes us look at this rather than that, what directs our attention, what interprets and manipulates our perceptions. It is fairly easy for me to see how such mechanisms can be explained by neuroscience -at least in theory - in terms of stimulus and response.

I have tried to take a strong position to provoke responses. Whether I can defend it adequately I don't know, but I find putting forward a firm stance is better for discussion than merely asking open ended questions, like 'What do you think consciousness consists of?"
To want to discuss something that you don't have a problem with strikes me as an exercise in consummate irrelevancy. You must be a philosophy perfesser, or just someone who wants to make personal points that will make no difference to anyone, ever-- not even to yourself. Why clutter a forum that is already struggling with relevancy? Do you think that it needs more bullshit??

Blaggard
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Blaggard » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:05 am

Wyman wrote:'There exist quantum algorithms, such as Simon's algorithm, which run faster than any possible probabilistic classical algorithm.[8] Given sufficient computational resources, however, a classical computer could be made to simulate any quantum algorithm; quantum computation does not violate the Church–Turing thesis.[9]'

That's from wikipedia. The whole entry supporst the idea the quantum computers are capable of performing certain functions faster and more efficiently, but I didn't see anything that indicated a hope for some different kind of computation.
In a conventional microchip logic gates use 1,0 to encode bits, which are translated by machine code and then parsed and parity checked so that they may be used in some sort of software. In quantum computers they encode qbits or quantum bits 1,0,0-1,1-0 the unexcited state and the mixed state of base state and excited state in superposition, meaning for each bit there are 4 possible states 2 of which are a superposition of 1 and 0, which is exponentially faster than the two bit processors. Also electrons run the risk of over heating limiting the amount of data that can be stored and causing short circuit problems at small scales due to quantum electron tunneling, photons on the other hand have no such issues so its considered such a machine has potentially taken the micro scale of computers to the nano scale, photons are also far less prone to interference at least at very low temperatures, current ion trap configurations and programs operate at very low temperatures typically around the liquid nitrogen temperature the traps encoding hence are stable, which is the stumbling block atm how to run a quantum system at room temperature, figure that out and the Nobel prize is yours. It's envisioned quantum computers will be very good at number crunching type tasks where they will easily outperform the donkey like electron transistors. ;)
2008

Graphene quantum dot qubits[63]
Quantum bit stored[64]
3D qubit-qutrit entanglement demonstrated[65]
Analog quantum computing devised[66]
Control of quantum tunneling[67]
Entangled memory developed[68]
Superior NOT gate developed[69]
Qutrits developed[70]
Quantum logic gate in optical fiber[71]
Superior quantum Hall Effect discovered[72]
Enduring spin states in quantum dots[73]
Molecular magnets proposed for quantum RAM[74]
Quasiparticles offer hope of stable quantum computer[75]
Image storage may have better storage of qubits[76]
Quantum entangled images[77]
Quantum state intentionally altered in molecule[78]
Electron position controlled in silicon circuit[79]
Superconducting Electronic Circuit Pumps Microwave Photons[80]
Amplitude spectroscopy developed[81]
Superior quantum computer test developed[82]
Optical frequency comb devised[83]
Quantum Darwinism supported[84]
Hybrid qubit memory developed[85]
Qubit stored for over 1 second in atomic nucleus[86]
Faster electron spin qubit switching and reading developed[87]
Possible non-entanglement quantum computing[88]
D-Wave Systems claims to have produced a 128 qubit computer chip, though this claim has yet to be verified.[89]
2009

Carbon 12 purified for longer coherence times[90]
Lifetime of qubits extended to hundreds of milliseconds[91]
Quantum control of photons[92]
Quantum entanglement demonstrated over 240 micrometres[93]
Qubit lifetime extended by factor of 1000[94]
First Electronic Quantum Processor Created[95]
Single molecule optical transistor[96]
NIST reads, writes individual qubits[97]
NIST demonstrates multiple computing operations on qubits[98]
A combination of all of the fundamental elements required to perform scalable quantum computing through the use of qubits stored in the internal states of trapped atomic ions shown[99]
Researchers at University of Bristol demonstrate Shor's algorithm on a silicon photonic chip[100]
Quantum Computing with an Electron Spin Ensemble[101]
Scalable flux qubit demonstrated[102]
Photon machine gun developed for quantum computing[103]
Quantum algorithm developed for differential equation systems[104]
First universal programmable quantum computer unveiled[105]
Scientists electrically control quantum states of electrons[106]
Google collaborates with D-Wave Systems on image search technology using quantum computing[107]
A method for synchronizing the properties of multiple coupled CJJ rf-SQUID flux qubits with a small spread of device parameters due to fabrication variations was demonstrated[108]

2010

Ion trapped in optical trap[109]
Optical quantum computer with three qubits calculated the energy spectrum of molecular hydrogen to high precision[110]
First germanium laser brings us closer to 'optical computers'[111]
Single electron qubit developed[112]
Quantum state in macroscopic object[113]
New quantum computer cooling method developed[114]
Racetrack ion trap developed[115]
5/2 quantum Hall liquids developed[116]
Quantum interface between a single photon and a single atom demonstrated[117]
LED quantum entanglement demonstrated[118]
Two photon optical chip[119]
Microfabricated planar ion traps[120][121]
Qubits manipulated electrically, not magnetically[122]
2011

Entanglement in a solid-state spin ensemble[123]
NOON photons in superconducting quantum integrated circuit[124]
Quantum antenna[125]
Multimode quantum interference[126]
Magnetic Resonance applied to quantum computing[127]
Quantum pen[128]
Atomic "Racing Dual"[129]
14 qubit register[130]
D-Wave claims to have developed quantum annealing and introduces their product called D-Wave One. The company claims this is the first commercially available quantum computer[131]
Repetitive error correction demonstrated in a quantum processor[132]
Diamond quantum computer memory demonstrated[133]
Qmodes developed[134]
Decoherence suppressed[135]
Simplification of controlled operations[136]
Ions entangled using microwaves[137]
Practical error rates achieved[138]
Quantum computer employing Von Neumann architecture[139]
Quantum spin Hall topological insulator[140]
Two Diamonds Linked by Quantum Entanglement could help develop photonic processors[141]

2012

Physicists create a working transistor from a single atom[142]
A method for manipulating the charge of nitrogen vacancy-centres in diamond[143]
Bell-based randomness expansion with reduced measurement independence.[144]
D-Wave claims a quantum computation using 84 qubits.[145]
Reported creation of a 300 qubit quantum simulator.[146]
Decoherence suppressed for 2 seconds at room temperature by manipulating Carbon-13 atoms with lasers.[147]

2013

Coherent superposition of an ensemble of approximately 3 billion qubits for 39 minutes at room temperature. The previous record was 2 seconds.[148]

2014

Documents leaked by Edward Snowden confirm the Penetrating Hard Targets project,[149] by which the NSA seeks to develop a quantum computing capability for cryptography purposes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... _computing

Where the field is atm.

Ginkgo
Posts: 2544
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Ginkgo » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:29 am

Blaggard wrote:
Wyman wrote:'There exist quantum algorithms, such as Simon's algorithm, which run faster than any possible probabilistic classical algorithm.[8] Given sufficient computational resources, however, a classical computer could be made to simulate any quantum algorithm; quantum computation does not violate the Church–Turing thesis.[9]'

That's from wikipedia. The whole entry supporst the idea the quantum computers are capable of performing certain functions faster and more efficiently, but I didn't see anything that indicated a hope for some different kind of computation.
In a conventional microchip logic gates use 1,0 to encode bits, which are translated by machine code and then parsed and parity checked so that they may be used in some sort of software. In quantum computers they encode qbits or quantum bits 1,0,0-1,1-0 the unexcited state and the mixed state of base state and excited state in superposition, meaning for each bit there are 4 possible states 2 of which are a superposition of 1 and 0, which is exponentially faster than the two bit processors. Also electrons run the risk of over heating limiting the amount of data that can be stored and causing short circuit problems at small scales due to quantum electron tunneling, photons on the other hand have no such issues so its considered such a machine has potentially taken the micro scale of computers to the nano scale, photons are also far less prone to interference at least at very low temperatures, current ion trap configurations and programs operate at very low temperatures typically around the liquid nitrogen temperature the traps encoding hence are stable, which is the stumbling block atm how to run a quantum system at room temperature, figure that out and the Nobel prize is yours. It's envisioned quantum computers will be very good at number crunching type tasks where they will easily outperform the donkey like electron transistors. ;)
2008

Graphene quantum dot qubits[63]
Quantum bit stored[64]
3D qubit-qutrit entanglement demonstrated[65]
Analog quantum computing devised[66]
Control of quantum tunneling[67]
Entangled memory developed[68]
Superior NOT gate developed[69]
Qutrits developed[70]
Quantum logic gate in optical fiber[71]
Superior quantum Hall Effect discovered[72]
Enduring spin states in quantum dots[73]
Molecular magnets proposed for quantum RAM[74]
Quasiparticles offer hope of stable quantum computer[75]
Image storage may have better storage of qubits[76]
Quantum entangled images[77]
Quantum state intentionally altered in molecule[78]
Electron position controlled in silicon circuit[79]
Superconducting Electronic Circuit Pumps Microwave Photons[80]
Amplitude spectroscopy developed[81]
Superior quantum computer test developed[82]
Optical frequency comb devised[83]
Quantum Darwinism supported[84]
Hybrid qubit memory developed[85]
Qubit stored for over 1 second in atomic nucleus[86]
Faster electron spin qubit switching and reading developed[87]
Possible non-entanglement quantum computing[88]
D-Wave Systems claims to have produced a 128 qubit computer chip, though this claim has yet to be verified.[89]
2009

Carbon 12 purified for longer coherence times[90]
Lifetime of qubits extended to hundreds of milliseconds[91]
Quantum control of photons[92]
Quantum entanglement demonstrated over 240 micrometres[93]
Qubit lifetime extended by factor of 1000[94]
First Electronic Quantum Processor Created[95]
Single molecule optical transistor[96]
NIST reads, writes individual qubits[97]
NIST demonstrates multiple computing operations on qubits[98]
A combination of all of the fundamental elements required to perform scalable quantum computing through the use of qubits stored in the internal states of trapped atomic ions shown[99]
Researchers at University of Bristol demonstrate Shor's algorithm on a silicon photonic chip[100]
Quantum Computing with an Electron Spin Ensemble[101]
Scalable flux qubit demonstrated[102]
Photon machine gun developed for quantum computing[103]
Quantum algorithm developed for differential equation systems[104]
First universal programmable quantum computer unveiled[105]
Scientists electrically control quantum states of electrons[106]
Google collaborates with D-Wave Systems on image search technology using quantum computing[107]
A method for synchronizing the properties of multiple coupled CJJ rf-SQUID flux qubits with a small spread of device parameters due to fabrication variations was demonstrated[108]

2010

Ion trapped in optical trap[109]
Optical quantum computer with three qubits calculated the energy spectrum of molecular hydrogen to high precision[110]
First germanium laser brings us closer to 'optical computers'[111]
Single electron qubit developed[112]
Quantum state in macroscopic object[113]
New quantum computer cooling method developed[114]
Racetrack ion trap developed[115]
5/2 quantum Hall liquids developed[116]
Quantum interface between a single photon and a single atom demonstrated[117]
LED quantum entanglement demonstrated[118]
Two photon optical chip[119]
Microfabricated planar ion traps[120][121]
Qubits manipulated electrically, not magnetically[122]
2011

Entanglement in a solid-state spin ensemble[123]
NOON photons in superconducting quantum integrated circuit[124]
Quantum antenna[125]
Multimode quantum interference[126]
Magnetic Resonance applied to quantum computing[127]
Quantum pen[128]
Atomic "Racing Dual"[129]
14 qubit register[130]
D-Wave claims to have developed quantum annealing and introduces their product called D-Wave One. The company claims this is the first commercially available quantum computer[131]
Repetitive error correction demonstrated in a quantum processor[132]
Diamond quantum computer memory demonstrated[133]
Qmodes developed[134]
Decoherence suppressed[135]
Simplification of controlled operations[136]
Ions entangled using microwaves[137]
Practical error rates achieved[138]
Quantum computer employing Von Neumann architecture[139]
Quantum spin Hall topological insulator[140]
Two Diamonds Linked by Quantum Entanglement could help develop photonic processors[141]

2012

Physicists create a working transistor from a single atom[142]
A method for manipulating the charge of nitrogen vacancy-centres in diamond[143]
Bell-based randomness expansion with reduced measurement independence.[144]
D-Wave claims a quantum computation using 84 qubits.[145]
Reported creation of a 300 qubit quantum simulator.[146]
Decoherence suppressed for 2 seconds at room temperature by manipulating Carbon-13 atoms with lasers.[147]

2013

Coherent superposition of an ensemble of approximately 3 billion qubits for 39 minutes at room temperature. The previous record was 2 seconds.[148]

2014

Documents leaked by Edward Snowden confirm the Penetrating Hard Targets project,[149] by which the NSA seeks to develop a quantum computing capability for cryptography purposes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... _computing

Where the field is atm.




Hi Blags,

The future possibilities are fascinating. I know some people think philosophy is next to useless,but there is nothing stopping us from realizing the possibility that not only can we get to look into the Schrodinger cat box before any observer, but we may well be able to decide the fate of the cat.

Blaggard
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: Consciousness Discussed

Post by Blaggard » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:36 am

Hi Blags,

The future possibilities are fascinating. I know some people think philosophy is next to useless,but there is nothing stopping us from realizing the possibility that not only can we get to look into the Schrodinger cat box before any observer, but we may well be able to decide the fate of the cat.
It's perhaps ironic that Schrödinger was actually poking fun at quantum mechanics by analogising the small scale to some ridiculous large scale experiment, thus the cat is alive and dead at the same time if we don't observe it and if we open the box we see what really the cats state is.

The sort of computation available will be literally a quantum leap in technology.

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