All About Virtual Reality

[Felasco]

Since the beginning of time, being human has largely been an experience of navigating through the real world to get what we need and want.

This process of negotiating with real world is such an utterly normal part of being human that we take it for granted, and naturally assume this is what living is, because wrestling with the real world is what life has always been.

Most of us don't even know what we really want, because what we really want is rarely available, and so our psychological life takes place largely within a narrow slice of experience defined by what we think we might be able to get.

What would we do if we inherited 100 billion dollars? Few of us have a good answer, because the prospect of truly having anything we want seems so unlikely as to be thoroughly silly.

The purpose of this thread is to explore an emerging era that may be closer than most of realize. We may be entering a time in human history when we can have whatever we want, when human experience is limited only by our imaginations.

If this is true, it would seem to be a truly revolutionary development requiring a profound rethinking of what it is to be human. Fertile soil for philosophers!

Where will we find anything and everything we want? In the virtual world.

You and I are doing it right now, as we choose virtual philosophy partners who are easy to find, over real world philosophers who are much less convenient to access.

Where are we going with this?

[Felasco]

Discussion of virtual reality usually focuses on futuristic whizz bang technology etc. Star Trek's Holodeck may be the best example from popular culture.

Geeky speculation can be fun for sure, but what interests me more is observing how deeply rooted the passion for virtual reality is in the human experience. Let's explore an example to get us started.

You're on your way to work, and you get stuck in a big traffic jam.

You've been at this intersection a thousand times, and there's nothing here that interests you. But the real world has captured you, and you're stuck at this boring intersection for now. So whaddya do?

You go virtual. That is, you become lost in thought.

You leave some fragment of your awareness behind in the real world so you'll know when the light changes, while most of your mind begins exploring more interesting virtual experiences inside of your head. You're no longer a prisoner of the real world, you're in control now.

Maybe you want to do some planning for the day ahead, or maybe you want to fantasize about having sex with your boss, or maybe you're replaying a conversation from yesterday so you can say that clever thing you wish you had said.

The choice of what to experience is yours, and the only limit is your imagination. Welcome to the virtual world.

The point here is of course that virtual reality isn't just some new gadget from Apple, but a fundamental part of the human experience.

The reason this is important is that it probably means that the gadgets from Apple will inevitably continue to develop in the direction we've been going for some time.

Radio => Movies => TV => Internet => Virtual Reality.

Each step in this chain makes our virtual experience a better simulation of the real world.

The end goal appears to be to create a completely convincing simulation of the real world. A realistic virtual world, where we are in control of everything.

A world where, if you wish to put it that way, we are God.

[Impenitent]

you forget, the written word has always been delivered in such terms...

-Imp

[Felasco]

Hi Imp,

you forget, the written word has always been delivered in such terms...

I don't forget, that's my point. We've been doing virtual reality by any means possible since the beginning.

To me, this says that it's inevitable, a near certainty, that we're all going to have our own Holodeck sooner or later. That is, we're headed for a world where we can have anything we want, be anything we want, experience anything we want, just like in the Holodeck.

Seems pretty profound to me....

[lennartack]

Being human is wrestling with the real world. What do I say, life is wrestling with the real world. There would not have been any life otherwise.

You can't buy everything with money, and that's a good thing, because you would not have any reason left to live.

Achievement of your goals and gratification of our desires is not what makes us happy, but the process thereafter and the desire itself. Living in a perfect virtual world will only makes us unhappier.

[Felasco]

Being human is wrestling with the real world.

That's what it's always been, agreed. It doesn't necessarily follow that it will therefore always be that way.

What do I say, life is wrestling with the real world. There would not have been any life otherwise.

Agreed.

You can't buy everything with money, and that's a good thing, because you would not have any reason left to live.

So the reason to live is to struggle?

What if the struggle is removed?

Achievement of your goals and gratification of our desires is not what makes us happy, but the process thereafter and the desire itself. Living in a perfect virtual world will only makes us unhappier.

I'm very open to this point of view. I think you could very well be right.

However, I maintain that a deeper immersion in the virtual world is coming, and coming fast, whether it's a good idea or not.

As example, this forum is a form of virtual world. Everything real world about us has been stripped away here, except for our words. Our faces, names, history, geography, culture, all gone.

Let's take it another step. Suppose you could click a button here on the forum, and the forum would then be filled with thousands of people all eager to discuss the topics that you personally are most interested in. Would you click the button?

What if the price tag was that the posters were convincing software simulations of human posters? Still interested?

Before somebody says no, please recall, you've already tossed away a great deal of what makes us human here on the forum, without any complaint.

[Impenitent]

experiencing altered realities in a virtual world...

alcohol and drugs?

still wanting to control the perfect trip?

-Imp

[lennartack]

Being human is wrestling with the real world.

That's what it's always been, agreed. It doesn't necessarily follow that it will therefore always be that way.

What, the "wrestling" or the "real world"?

I remembered this comment in a topic of mine some time ago:

I think this would be a unenviable way to live. Immediate gratification, and lack of vulnerability both seem to conflict with the essence of what it means to be human, of what it means to exact enjoyment out of life. Similarly, doesn't "maximal happiness" also imply the most amount of happiness for the least amount of pain? Where's the adventure... the excitement? A perfect society seems bland and inevitably, after a period of time, the question would again arise. Any society which we could come up with would never meet the criterion to satisfy permanently.

When I was younger I used to play a lot of computer games. Games are all about competing and the process to completing the game. Games are not "real", but satisfy the adventurous part of life. When I got older I started to worry about the fact games are not real. Currently, I hate games.

This is of course caused by a desire for reality. While I can't possibly ignore this feeling, rationally it doesn't seem to be necessary. If all there was in life was games, I would still be playing them. Equally, if the world we live in would actually be the matrix, there would not be a problem. (As long as we don't know our world is not real, or not?)

You can't buy everything with money, and that's a good thing, because you would not have any reason left to live.

So the reason to live is to struggle?

What if the struggle is removed?

My first reaction is that that would be horrible. I'm not so sure though.

As example, this forum is a form of virtual world. Everything real world about us has been stripped away here, except for our words. Our faces, names, history, geography, culture, all gone.

In modern society much of our cultural origins are becoming vague in favor of individualism. Other things are taking its place though. Philosophy is a way to act against culture for me, but at the same time it is a substitute. Besides, this forum has characters, often a little stereotypical. And they are, presumably, real persons.

Let's take it another step. Suppose you could click a button here on the forum, and the forum would then be filled with thousands of people all eager to discuss the topics that you personally are most interested in. Would you click the button?

My initial reaction is no, since it can often be insightful to talk with people with different interests. Sometimes it can even wake your own interest in other topics. After thinking about it though, it sounds tempting. It would be a lot better though, if I had to put work into it. If I had to actually "earn" these people.

What if the price tag was that the posters were convincing software simulations of human posters? Still interested?

Considering my aversion against unreal things, no.

[Felasco]

In the coming virtual reality utopia, we'll get more out of Mr. Imp than quips...

[Ginkgo]

Being human is wrestling with the real world.

That's what it's always been, agreed. It doesn't necessarily follow that it will therefore always be that way.

What do I say, life is wrestling with the real world. There would not have been any life otherwise.

Agreed.

You can't buy everything with money, and that's a good thing, because you would not have any reason left to live.

So the reason to live is to struggle?

What if the struggle is removed?

Achievement of your goals and gratification of our desires is not what makes us happy, but the process thereafter and the desire itself. Living in a perfect virtual world will only makes us unhappier.

I'm very open to this point of view. I think you could very well be right.

However, I maintain that a deeper immersion in the virtual world is coming, and coming fast, whether it's a good idea or not.

As example, this forum is a form of virtual world. Everything real world about us has been stripped away here, except for our words. Our faces, names, history, geography, culture, all gone.

Let's take it another step. Suppose you could click a button here on the forum, and the forum would then be filled with thousands of people all eager to discuss the topics that you personally are most interested in. Would you click the button?

What if the price tag was that the posters were convincing software simulations of human posters? Still interested?

Before somebody says no, please recall, you've already tossed away a great deal of what makes us human here on the forum, without any complaint.

Hello Felasco,


This reminds me of Searle's Chinese room argument. We can have a long and involved conservation about this, but in the end I will make a confession. I am not a person, You have been discussing this with a machine. Once you know this would will probably lose interest in the discussion.

Anyway, want to challenge me to a game of chess?

[lennartack]

This reminds me of Searle's Chinese room argument. We can have a long and involved conservation about this, but in the end I will make a confession. I am not a person, You have been discussing this with a machine. Once you know this would will probably lose interest in the discussion.

What if you found out that all users on this forum except yourself are actually robots?

It's been suggested on this forum that all users are in fact an alter ego's of Rick Lewis. I'm not sure if I would care a lot. Rick would be a genius though!

[Impenitent]

... Rick would be a genius though!

or Sybil

-Imp

[Felasco]

What, the "wrestling" or the "real world"?

We've defined being human as the endless struggle with the real world. While I agree in regards to the past, we've been working pretty relentlessly to remove as much struggle as we can. We can plot that line forward in to the future.

I think this would be a unenviable way to live. Immediate gratification, and lack of vulnerability both seem to conflict with the essence of what it means to be human, of what it means to exact enjoyment out of life.

By this logic shouldn't we be making life harder?

Similarly, doesn't "maximal happiness" also imply the most amount of happiness for the least amount of pain? Where's the adventure... the excitement?

In virtual reality, you'll be able to control the amount of struggle too. Enough to be fun, not so much as to be objectionable.

A perfect society seems bland and inevitably, after a period of time, the question would again arise. Any society which we could come up with would never meet the criterion to satisfy permanently.

I don't disagree with many of your sentiments. I'm not arguing for virtual reality, but am arguing we're already using as much of it as we can get our hands on, and this seems to predict an ever deeper immersion to come.

When I got older I started to worry about the fact games are not real. Currently, I hate games.

But you still like forums.

What if the struggle is removed?

My first reaction is that that would be horrible. I'm not so sure though.

Yes, everybody always says this, while we work around the clock trying to make our lives easier, with less struggle.

My initial reaction is no, since it can often be insightful to talk with people with different interests. Sometimes it can even wake your own interest in other topics. After thinking about it though, it sounds tempting. It would be a lot better though, if I had to put work into it. If I had to actually "earn" these people.

You have certain desires, opinions and requirements etc, and so does everybody else. Why can't these requirements be addressed in simulation?

What I see is that we'll always have to negotiate and compromise with other humans, whereas we can have whatever we want in simulation. I'm wondering how long we will choose imperfection once perfection is available.

What if the price tag was that the posters were convincing software simulations of human posters? Still interested?

Considering my aversion against unreal things, no.

These are the kinds of philosophical questions I hope to explore. Why is a human real, and a simulation unreal?

The best I can offer is the guess that the first generation to have the option will find it problematic, but for the following generation who has grown up with the simulation option, no big deal, what's the problem?

[Ginkgo]

This reminds me of Searle's Chinese room argument. We can have a long and involved conservation about this, but in the end I will make a confession. I am not a person, You have been discussing this with a machine. Once you know this would will probably lose interest in the discussion.

What if you found out that all users on this forum except yourself are actually robots?

It's been suggested on this forum that all users are in fact an alter ego's of Rick Lewis. I'm not sure if I would care a lot. Rick would be a genius though!

Hi again Felasco,

What you are saying is very interesting and I think it deserves some attention.

As a machine there is nothing at it is like for me to play you in a game of chess. I make the moves according to how I am programmed. There is no euphoria on my part when I beat you. I might ACT like I am delighted with the win, but is is only an act.

On the other hand, there is something it is like for you to play a game of chess against a machine. If you win there would be no doubt about the delight in your achievement. This is not an act on your part, you would probably be quite pleased with yourself.

I guess the point I was making is that it would be of no consequence to you that I lack the ability to know, what it is like to play chess. All that matters is that you know what it is like to play chess and beat a machine. This would be enough motivation to participate.


Ginkgo( not a machine)

[Felasco]

We can have a long and involved conservation about this, but in the end I will make a confession. I am not a person, You have been discussing this with a machine. Once you know this would will probably lose interest in the discussion.

Maybe. I'm not as sure as I used to be. Let's use a real world example.

This is a real world forum populated by humans. It's a very small forum, and members will likely soon lose interest in my virtual reality obsession.

In a true virtual reality forum populated by simulation posters, there could be 10,000 different posters, each endlessly fascinated with every detail of virtual reality. Oh, and they all think I'm the most brilliant poster in human history, and want to have wild sex with me. That too. Don't forget to tell the programmers.

What I'm trying to get at it is, how will the real world compete with the virtual world? How will limits, negotiation and compromise compete with "anything we want"?