All About Virtual Reality

[Felasco]

Hi Ginko,

I like your analogy!

There is no euphoria on my part when I beat you. I might ACT like I am delighted with the win, but is is only an act.

Perhaps a useful question is....

What will it take for me the human to buy in to the act put on by you the virtual software based chess partner?

It seems that at some point the simulation will become realistic enough that even though I know you are software, I buy in to and experience the emotions you the machine are projecting.

The simulation doesn't have to fool us completely. As example, consider a play or a movie.

Intellectually we know it is just a play and those are just actors pretending to be the characters they are portraying. What makes the play work is that we willingly suspend disbelief and embrace the illusion. We've been doing this ever since the stories around the campfire days.

Consider how real world actors are now playing right along side software entities in movies like Avatar. I don't see people jumping up in the theater yelling, "Those characters are just software!"

Why would a Holodeck in your bedroom be any different? If the movie Avatar is compelling in it's current form, won't it be even more compelling when you and I are in the movie?

[reasonvemotion]

Where will we find anything and everything we want? In the virtual world.

Felasco

What is it that you want, you don't or can't have, that the virtual world could give you?


Sex and ..............................................................................................

[Ginkgo]

Hi Ginko,

I like your analogy!

There is no euphoria on my part when I beat you. I might ACT like I am delighted with the win, but is is only an act.

Perhaps a useful question is....

What will it take for me the human to buy in to the act put on by you the virtual software based chess partner?

It seems that at some point the simulation will become realistic enough that even though I know you are software, I buy in to and experience the emotions you the machine are projecting.

The simulation doesn't have to fool us completely. As example, consider a play or a movie.

Intellectually we know it is just a play and those are just actors pretending to be the characters they are portraying. What makes the play work is that we willingly suspend disbelief and embrace the illusion. We've been doing this ever since the stories around the campfire days.

Consider how real world actors are now playing right along side software entities in movies like Avatar. I don't see people jumping up in the theater yelling, "Those characters are just software!"

Why would a Holodeck in your bedroom be any different? If the movie Avatar is compelling in it's current form, won't it be even more compelling when you and I are in the movie?

I think it is even more compelling when we are out of the move.I think we have a propensity for illusion. The bigger and wider the illusion the better. I am of course saying that the illusion extends beyond Hollywood. The illusions Hollywood creates are evidence of wider illusions. Unless we keep checking what we believe with what is actually happening in the real world then the illusion can be all pervasive.

In other words, we are fast becoming a society with an addiction, and that addiction is to ideology. Political ideologies, economic ideologies. No understanding in terms of the relationship between what we know and what we should do. I think it is a very big problem and it's not just restricted to computer games and movies. The virtual world of economics and politics.

[Felasco]

What is it that you want, you don't or can't have, that the virtual world could give you?

Excellent question, thank you!

I hope everybody will answer this one.

I'm a huge nature nut, so I'd use virtual reality to immerse myself in exploring the very many parts of the real world I'll never be able to travel to in person.

This feature is already available on the web, and I have a big website devoted to it already. But, the technology is still relatively primitive. YouTube videos are incredible compared to what was available only a dozen years ago, but it's hard to confuse them with actually being there.

So, I imagine something like this.

A room in your house where the walls and ceiling are covered entirely edge to edge with video displays. The image and sound quality is many times more high def than currently available.

(A version of high def with 4 times as many pixels is emerging now, so it's only a matter of time until digital video is indistinguishable from reality.)

If you point at a wall, you begin to travel through the landscape in that direction.

Every landscape on Earth is available, and some on nearby planets we've explored as well. Mars for instance.

What I've just described above is almost possible today, but the price would be huge, and the content isn't ready yet. 360 degree video cameras are available, but not widespread due to cost.

This is a not that futuristic version of virtual reality that would suck me in and keep me off the streets for a very long time. I already do it to a degree, but the current technology isn't quite a convincing enough simulation to keep me hooked.

Again, a great question, I hope all readers including the questioner, might take a shot at it.

[Felasco]

I think we have a propensity for illusion.

No shit, human beings are saturated in illusion, it's very much a part of who we are.

Unless we keep checking what we believe with what is actually happening in the real world then the illusion can be all pervasive.

I think the illusion is already all pervasive, as it is built in to the nature of thought.

In other words, we are fast becoming a society with an addiction, and that addiction is to ideology.

Yes, ideology might be seen as a rejection of the real world, a conceptual projection of what could be, instead of an appreciation of what already is.

[lennartack]

What, the "wrestling" or the "real world"?

These are the kinds of philosophical questions I hope to explore. Why is a human real, and a simulation unreal?

The best I can offer is the guess that the first generation to have the option will find it problematic, but for the following generation who has grown up with the simulation option, no big deal, what's the problem?

You may be right. Suppose we live in a completed virtual perfected world. There would be a simulation of adventure, but since you can turn it on and of it wouldn't be like struggles we now have in the real world. We would be junkies of the system.

As we agreed, this is very different from our biological past. Wouldn't this mean over time we will evolve into another being? Wouldn't we become increasingly simpler beings, and eventually die out?

And living in the same perfect world and being raised in the same perfect way, what would that mean to diversity? We would all become the same person.

There could be problems within a lifetime as well. When we've had many years in a virtual perfect world, I can imagine some will get tired of all the happinness boosts and easiness and would want to live in the real world, or die.

Yes, we could make our virtual world exactly like the real world, but then what's the point of going virtual?

[lennartack]

What is it that you want, you don't or can't have, that the virtual world could give you?

Excellent question, thank you!

I hope everybody will answer this one.

Nothing. At least, as long as the virtual world doesn't include interaction with other humans, like this forum. Except for sex maybe, like reasonvemotion suggested. Can't think of anything else.

[Felasco]

Nothing. At least, as long as the virtual world doesn't include interaction with other humans, like this forum. Except for sex maybe, like reasonvemotion suggested. Can't think of anything else.

Ok, you like humans, fair enough. And you've come here to this forum looking for humans who share your interest in these topics.

For you, is a text based forum the ideal social environment for discussing philosophy?

For you, is a tiny forum with only a dozen or two members the ideal environment for discussing philosophy?

Let's imagine that we leave the text option in place for those who prefer it, and we also add an option where we can discuss philosophy with other humans on the surface of Mars, and other exciting locations around the solar system.

Let's imagine that instead of human posters being represented by an anonymous text screen name, they are represented by a convincing life-like simulation of whatever flavor of human being you personally find the most attractive and interesting.

Let's imagine that whenever someone has a question about some historic philosopher, a software based avatar with extensive knowledge of that subject appears to provide biographical detail, imagery of the philosopher's life, times, location etc, thus making the discussion of philosophy much less abstract and much more accurate and engaging.

This leads to many more users, more humans to chat with.

Oh, and this just in from Rick Lewis. For a small extra charge you can have Diane Lane sitting in your lap while you share your latest profound observations. Other fantasy characters are available of course, though personally I can't imagine any that could be better than Diane Lane.

[lennartack]

Nothing. At least, as long as the virtual world doesn't include interaction with other humans, like this forum. Except for sex maybe, like reasonvemotion suggested. Can't think of anything else.

Ok, you like humans, fair enough. And you've come here to this forum looking for humans who share your interest in these topics.

For you, is a text based forum the ideal social environment for discussing philosophy?

For you, is a tiny forum with only a dozen or two members the ideal environment for discussing philosophy?

Let's imagine that we leave the text option in place for those who prefer it, and we also add an option where we can discuss philosophy with other humans on the surface of Mars, and other exciting locations around the solar system.

Let's imagine that instead of human posters being represented by an anonymous text screen name, they are represented by a convincing life-like simulation of whatever flavor of human being you personally find the most attractive and interesting.

Let's imagine that whenever someone has a question about some historic philosopher, a software based avatar with extensive knowledge of that subject appears to provide biographical detail, imagery of the philosopher's life, times, location etc, thus making the discussion of philosophy much less abstract and much more accurate and engaging.

This leads to many more users, more humans to chat with.

Oh, and this just in from Rick Lewis. For a small extra charge you can have Diane Lane sitting in your lap while you share your latest profound observations. Other fantasy characters are available of course, though personally I can't imagine any that could be better than Diane Lane.

Omg, what are we waiting for? I'll go for Emma Watson, she is from my generation.

Your description is very appealing, but I fear being sucked into this virtual philosophy world. While they are real humans, they are actually far away. I somehow feel the world around me should have priority, and I might forget about that.

[reasonvemotion]

Pain and Gain would be awesome in 3D!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEQ8jyvmYtw




But hey, hold it right there and think.

"It is when we buy into the doctrine that life is to be lived to escape pain, including responsibility for anything uncomfortable that we begin to feel the impact of a philosophy of radical Hedonism. By saying the avoidance of pain and the pursuit of pleasure is "the good" (not just 'good', but "The Good"), Hedonism is making a value judgement".

I am almost certain after watching it, I am going to feel "hollow".

Maybe "Based on a True Story" will do it for me.

[Arising_uk]

...
still wanting to control the perfect trip?

-Imp

And as anybody who has done one knows, this leads to it being a bad one.

[chasw]

I remember my Metaphysics professor making a big point of the distinction between lived and depicted experiences. As humans developed more powerful communications media in the last 100 years, these depicted experiences have grown in their complexity and popularity. Virtual reality is nothing more than an advanced form of multimedia communication.

Already by the late 19th Century large numbers of people were sitting in quite corners, immersing their minds into printed books, suspending their immediate lived experience and switching the focus of their consciousness to a fantastic depiction of life. Living vicariously. What is fascinating, even scary about the future, is the prospect of VR appliances that you sit in, like a coffin. They will isolate your senses from the usual lived experiences, and substitute high-definition, interactive virtual reality. It could be addictive in the extreme. - CW

[Felasco]

Virtual reality is nothing more than an advanced form of multimedia communication.

Right, it's just the next logical step after what we're already doing right now.

And, multimedia communication is just the next logical step after what humans have been doing since the beginning of time, exploring alternate reality scenarios in our heads. Technology just helps bring these inner image streams to life, making them more realistic and compelling.

What is fascinating, even scary about the future, is the prospect of VR appliances that you sit in, like a coffin. They will isolate your senses from the usual lived experiences, and substitute high-definition, interactive virtual reality. It could be addictive in the extreme.

It's already addictive in the extreme, and our current technology is primitive compared to what is coming.

It perhaps helps to be older, to be able to remember a time before everybody was glued to computers and cell phones etc around the clock. If we compare, say, the 1960s to today, we can see we're already well in to this coming virtual reality era.

Thanks for getting it CW.

[reasonvemotion]

A sideways step to "shooting up" without killing yourself.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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