What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Magnolia5275
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What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Magnolia5275 »

Precisely, what is the definition and meaning of Consciousness and how is it different than the definition and meaning of the word Truth?

My conclusion is that both "Truth" and "Consciousness" mean the totality of experiences. "Truth" just like any other word in language, can only be known through its correspondence to a feeling. In other words "Truth" is simply a feeling we know of, and that has profound implications on what reality actually is. If "Truth" is nothing beyond a feeling (how could it be??), then any statement claiming truth outside of consciousness is linguistically false because no word in language can reference something unknowable.

In other words, the word "Truth" exists because it is known, and only because it is known. A reality outside of "the known" is a reality outside of Truth.
Belinda
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Belinda »

Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm Precisely, what is the definition and meaning of Consciousness and how is it different than the definition and meaning of the word Truth?

My conclusion is that both "Truth" and "Consciousness" mean the totality of experiences. "Truth" just like any other word in language, can only be known through its correspondence to a feeling. In other words "Truth" is simply a feeling we know of, and that has profound implications on what reality actually is. If "Truth" is nothing beyond a feeling (how could it be??), then any statement claiming truth outside of consciousness is linguistically false because no word in language can reference something unknowable.

In other words, the word "Truth" exists because it is known, and only because it is known. A reality outside of "the known" is a reality outside of Truth.
'Truth' is commonly associated with absolute truth, but 'consciousness' commonly refers to living individuals, as in the clinical usage of 'conscious'.Therefore 'consciousness' is not the best word to link with absolute truth i.e. "totality of experiences". I can think of a more precise word that fits.

No man knows absolute truth.Absolute truth is 'known' only as an item of faith.
Individual consciousnesses are not absolute consciousness. Absolute consciousness is also an item of faith but as such it is a lot less credible than absolute truth.
Magnolia5275
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Magnolia5275 »

'consciousness' commonly refers to living individuals, as in the clinical usage of 'conscious'
Yes, but we are in a philosophy of mind forum, obviously by "consciousness" I mean the accurate definition and not the medical jargon definition.
No man knows absolute truth.Absolute truth is 'known' only as an item of faith.
If no man knows "absolute truth", then the words correspond to nothing so I can just remove them from your sentence and nothing will change, right?

No man knows [cleoniclosel].[cleoniclosel] is 'known' only as an item of faith.

If the word "absolute truth" has no mapping to a feeling we can just replace it with a nonsense made-up word and the sentence has the same meaning.

The point I am making is that every single word maps to feelings we have. You can play around with definitions, defining one word through other words and concepts, but you cannot go on forever in language. Eventually, you just end up creating circular definitions. All words ultimately lead to conscious felt experiences.

The words "Truth" and "Consciousness" both reference the same thing. That is: the essence feeling of knowing
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Lacewing
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Lacewing »

There might be various ways of looking at it. Please excuse me if I'm not wrapping my head around your intended meaning sufficiently as I attempt to respond.

There are different levels/states of consciousness.

There are different kinds of truth.

It is possible to be conscious and not think oneself knows the truth.

It is possible to think oneself knows the truth while not being fully conscious.

The 'totality of experience' is likely just as imaginary as claiming to know 'ultimate truth'. Do we know who we are or what this is? All human words and concepts are part of the human dream, without any ultimate distinction. We use them here, and there are lots of ways to use them.
Magnolia5275
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Magnolia5275 »

"ultimate truth"

Why are you composing "ultimate" with "truth", before you have defined "truth"? What does "truth" mean? If you really think about it, truth is a feeling, which means it can only exist in a mind. "ultimate truth" therefore becomes the axiomatic foundation of all truths which is god.
Do we know who we are or what this is?
Yes, we are god dreaming himself as multiple characters in his dream world of planet earth. Reality is the universal consciousness of god. This is 100% true because Truth only exists in Consciousness so we know we are living in a mind.
Walker
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Walker »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:48 pm There might be various ways of looking at it. Please excuse me if I'm not wrapping my head around your intended meaning sufficiently as I attempt to respond.

There are different levels/states of consciousness.

There are different kinds of truth.

It is possible to be conscious and not think oneself knows the truth.

It is possible to think oneself knows the truth while not being fully conscious.

The 'totality of experience' is likely just as imaginary as claiming to know 'ultimate truth'. Do we know who we are or what this is? All human words and concepts are part of the human dream, without any ultimate distinction. We use them here, and there are lots of ways to use them.
- I read all of yours, even that last paragraph. It’s only fair that you read all of mine, which of course requires more time and attention than the ol' hee haw because it says more, so the extra reading is the price you must pay to practice equity fairness.

- By definition, the totality of experiences includes unknown experiences, experienced while unconscious. The totality of experiences would also include memory of experience as proof to consciousness that the experience actually happened.

- When actually experiencing consciousness then reality feels heightened, such as when flirting with death of the body. Folks may experience this as dreamlike, for the experience of time and effort is altered from what can become a routine and habitual zombie dance.

- Memories disappear, which reduces past experience from the totality of experience, while actual new experiences add to the totality of experience. However, past experience without memory can be inferred by its effect upon the body.

- You are not conscious of unknown experiences, but they can be inferred.

- Unknown experiences are what happens to the body when you are not conscious of the body.

- For example, a college student in a frat house may awaken one morning with magic-marker graffiti on his face, as the result of a body experience that occurred without the participation of consciousness.

- If it’s a naïve young woman who wandered into the party, she could start the inferring when she realizes she has a surprise bun in the oven, or when she sees surprise pictures.

- For example, a Las Vegas vacationer may awaken after a body experience of losing a front tooth, an experience that happened without the participation of his consciousness. He may also find a clucking chicken wandering by, and a literal tiger in the bedroom.

- For example, a sleepwalker may take a stroll on a rooftop then go back to bed without having had the consciouss experience of the walk, although the body had the experience, so that’s an unknown experience included in the totality of consciousness.

- There are medicines used in the operating room that will erase memory of the operation experience, i.e. pain, upon the body. This is helpful just in case one remains conscious during the operation while the body and its voice energy that yells ouch, is paralyzed, which is just one more worry one should be conscious of before going under the knife.

- Have you ever had an operation? Think back. What really happened? :lol:
Belinda
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Belinda »

Magnolia5275 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:17 pm
'consciousness' commonly refers to living individuals, as in the clinical usage of 'conscious'
Yes, but we are in a philosophy of mind forum, obviously by "consciousness" I mean the accurate definition and not the medical jargon definition.
No man knows absolute truth.Absolute truth is 'known' only as an item of faith.
If no man knows "absolute truth", then the words correspond to nothing so I can just remove them from your sentence and nothing will change, right?

No man knows [cleoniclosel].[cleoniclosel] is 'known' only as an item of faith.

If the word "absolute truth" has no mapping to a feeling we can just replace it with a nonsense made-up word and the sentence has the same meaning.

The point I am making is that every single word maps to feelings we have. You can play around with definitions, defining one word through other words and concepts, but you cannot go on forever in language. Eventually, you just end up creating circular definitions. All words ultimately lead to conscious felt experiences.

The words "Truth" and "Consciousness" both reference the same thing. That is: the essence feeling of knowing
Absolute truth is an item of faith, and items of faith are experienced by the faithful. So items of faith exist. Items of faith are felt experiences. Anything that is a felt experience exists.
Belinda
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Belinda »

Belinda wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 7:47 pm
Magnolia5275 wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:17 pm
'consciousness' commonly refers to living individuals, as in the clinical usage of 'conscious'
Yes, but we are in a philosophy of mind forum, obviously by "consciousness" I mean the accurate definition and not the medical jargon definition.
No man knows absolute truth.Absolute truth is 'known' only as an item of faith.
If no man knows "absolute truth", then the words correspond to nothing so I can just remove them from your sentence and nothing will change, right?

No man knows [cleoniclosel].[cleoniclosel] is 'known' only as an item of faith.

If the word "absolute truth" has no mapping to a feeling we can just replace it with a nonsense made-up word and the sentence has the same meaning.

The point I am making is that every single word maps to feelings we have. You can play around with definitions, defining one word through other words and concepts, but you cannot go on forever in language. Eventually, you just end up creating circular definitions. All words ultimately lead to conscious felt experiences.

The words "Truth" and "Consciousness" both reference the same thing. That is: the essence feeling of knowing
Absolute truth is an item of faith, and items of faith are experienced by the faithful. So items of faith exist. Items of faith are felt experiences. Anything that is a felt experience exists. Actually "felt" is redundant because experience is nothing if not felt.
bobmax
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by bobmax »

No definition of Truth is possible.
Because the Truth is what allows every possible definition.

Truth is Being itself.
Indeed Being = Being True.

And Being, as far as we are concerned, coincides with Nothingness.
As well as the Truth.
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Trajk Logik
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Trajk Logik »

Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm Precisely, what is the definition and meaning of Consciousness and how is it different than the definition and meaning of the word Truth?

My conclusion is that both "Truth" and "Consciousness" mean the totality of experiences.
When we are unconscious, is it true that we are unconscious? If so, then truth and consciousness are not the same thing.
Dimebag
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Dimebag »

Truth refers to internal logical consistency. Consciousness can produce experiences which are not consistent nor logical and are therefore not true.

True refers to producing some desired result. If an arrow is true it flies straight and hits its target. Consciousness is the ground upon which true or false is tested. True can also refer to wisdom. This form of truth is that from which experience is gained and through learning a rule of thumb for living is established. Again, consciousness is necessary, but not sufficient.
Belinda
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Belinda »

Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:11 pm
Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm Precisely, what is the definition and meaning of Consciousness and how is it different than the definition and meaning of the word Truth?

My conclusion is that both "Truth" and "Consciousness" mean the totality of experiences.
When we are unconscious, is it true that we are unconscious? If so, then truth and consciousness are not the same thing.
Reality/truth and consciousness are not the same . 'Consciousness' is a vague term, which at best stands for waking awareness. However waking awareness, dreaming sleep awareness, and dreamless sleep are also forms of consciousness that differ from each other due to which neurotransmitter(s) is/are predominant at any one time.

At those times when we are at maximum waking awareness we can focus on intellectual abstractions such as truth in the Platonic sense. I agree with Magnolia despite we explain differently. In particular I applaud and agree with her "totality of experiences".
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Trajk Logik
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Trajk Logik »

Belinda wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:27 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:11 pm
Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm Precisely, what is the definition and meaning of Consciousness and how is it different than the definition and meaning of the word Truth?

My conclusion is that both "Truth" and "Consciousness" mean the totality of experiences.
When we are unconscious, is it true that we are unconscious? If so, then truth and consciousness are not the same thing.
Reality/truth and consciousness are not the same . 'Consciousness' is a vague term, which at best stands for waking awareness. However waking awareness, dreaming sleep awareness, and dreamless sleep are also forms of consciousness that differ from each other due to which neurotransmitter(s) is/are predominant at any one time.
How are reality and consciousness related? How do they interact? How does a mental substance interact with a physical one?

As a monist, I believe that there is only one substance and that is information. Mental and physical are different forms of information.

How do neurotransmitters generate consciousness? The hard problem of consciousness is a real problem. How do physical brains create the experience of visual depth and empty space? If my experience exists inside, or as part of the processes of my brain, why do I not experience neurons firing as a representation of the world instead of experiencing colors, sounds and feelings, but see only neurons firing when looking at your experiences?

I think quantum mechanics sheds some light on this with the idea of the observer effect. Consciousness is a type of measurement. As such the the form the measurement takes is dependent upon the apparatus used to make the measurement, ie., eyes and a brain. My conscious experience of your conscious experiences are really a measurement of your conscious experiences. The visual experience of brains and their neurons are measurements of mental processes, both conscious and non-conscious, of other people. Brains and their neurons are not what is really "out there". Consciousness (and other mental processes) as a form of information is what is "out there". In this sense, thinking that the world is as it appears is false, or not true. Understanding that your experience is about the world, and not the world as it is, is what is true. In this sense we can know the world. We can know what is true about the world given that information is the relationship between causes and their effects. Effects, like conscious experience, carry information about the cause - the local environment and it's interaction with your body.

You might think that this is something like a panpsychist view, but I'm not saying that consciousness is fundamental. Information is and consciousness is just one form information takes.

Information is relational. This is why consciousness is about the world relative to your location, as well as other states like temperature, in it. There is an essence of aboutness to consciousness, as in it is about the world given your current goals in the moment.
Belinda wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:27 pm At those times when we are at maximum waking awareness we can focus on intellectual abstractions such as truth in the Platonic sense. I agree with Magnolia despite we explain differently. In particular I applaud and agree with her "totality of experiences".
I'm not sure what "totality of experiences" refers to. Using your own terminology, I'm guessing it means the totality of dominant neurotransmitters?
Belinda
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Belinda »

Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:38 pm
Belinda wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:27 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 5:11 pm

When we are unconscious, is it true that we are unconscious? If so, then truth and consciousness are not the same thing.
Reality/truth and consciousness are not the same . 'Consciousness' is a vague term, which at best stands for waking awareness. However waking awareness, dreaming sleep awareness, and dreamless sleep are also forms of consciousness that differ from each other due to which neurotransmitter(s) is/are predominant at any one time.
How are reality and consciousness related? How do they interact? How does a mental substance interact with a physical one?

As a monist, I believe that there is only one substance and that is information. Mental and physical are different forms of information.

How do neurotransmitters generate consciousness? The hard problem of consciousness is a real problem. How do physical brains create the experience of visual depth and empty space? If my experience exists inside, or as part of the processes of my brain, why do I not experience neurons firing as a representation of the world instead of experiencing colors, sounds and feelings, but see only neurons firing when looking at your experiences?

I think quantum mechanics sheds some light on this with the idea of the observer effect. Consciousness is a type of measurement. As such the the form the measurement takes is dependent upon the apparatus used to make the measurement, ie., eyes and a brain. My conscious experience of your conscious experiences are really a measurement of your conscious experiences. The visual experience of brains and their neurons are measurements of mental processes, both conscious and non-conscious, of other people. Brains and their neurons are not what is really "out there". Consciousness (and other mental processes) as a form of information is what is "out there". In this sense, thinking that the world is as it appears is false, or not true. Understanding that your experience is about the world, and not the world as it is, is what is true. In this sense we can know the world. We can know what is true about the world given that information is the relationship between causes and their effects. Effects, like conscious experience, carry information about the cause - the local environment and it's interaction with your body.

You might think that this is something like a panpsychist view, but I'm not saying that consciousness is fundamental. Information is and consciousness is just one form information takes.

Information is relational. This is why consciousness is about the world relative to your location, as well as other states like temperature, in it. There is an essence of aboutness to consciousness, as in it is about the world given your current goals in the moment.
Belinda wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:27 pm At those times when we are at maximum waking awareness we can focus on intellectual abstractions such as truth in the Platonic sense. I agree with Magnolia despite we explain differently. In particular I applaud and agree with her "totality of experiences".
I'm not sure what "totality of experiences" refers to. Using your own terminology, I'm guessing it means the totality of dominant neurotransmitters?
Yes I'd endorse the physicalist explanation of experience. However I'm idealist((immaterialist) and so the physicalist interpretation and explanation is subsumed under the idealist interpretation and explanation.
Age
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Re: What is the difference between Consciousness and Truth?

Post by Age »

Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm Precisely, what is the definition and meaning of Consciousness and how is it different than the definition and meaning of the word Truth?
The word 'conscious' refers to 'being aware' as in when one is 'conscious' of some 'thing', then they are 'aware' of 'that thing', and, 'consciousness' refers to the action, behavior, or state of just 'being aware'. The word 'Consciousness' with a capital 'C' refers to the state of 'being Aware' of ALL 'things' and NOT just some 'things'.

'truth' is reached or obtained through 'agreement and acceptance'. And, 'Truth' capital 'T' is when there is 'agreement and acceptance' by ALL or EVERY 'thing'.
Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm My conclusion is that both "Truth" and "Consciousness" mean the totality of experiences. "Truth" just like any other word in language, can only be known through its correspondence to a feeling. In other words "Truth" is simply a feeling we know of, and that has profound implications on what reality actually is.
So, if I am wonder what 'life' is, EXACTLY, and I am 'feeling' sad, for example, at that time, then 'Life is sad' would be the 'Truth', following this 'logic' of 'yours' here, correct?

If no, then WHY NOT?
Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm If "Truth" is nothing beyond a feeling (how could it be??), then any statement claiming truth outside of consciousness is linguistically false because no word in language can reference something unknowable.
Wow you JUMPED from one ASSUMPTION to ANOTHER ASSUMPTION then to A CONCLUSION here VERY QUICKLY.

Also, WHY do you ask questions here, which you, OBVIOUSLY, have NO interest in HEARING what "another" has to SAY in regards to 'your question'?

What 'you' are doing here is just REVEALING and SHOWING what 'you' ALREADY BELIEVE IS TRUE.
Magnolia5275 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:38 pm In other words, the word "Truth" exists because it is known, and only because it is known. A reality outside of "the known" is a reality outside of Truth.
Did it NOT 'stand to reason' PREVIOUSLY that ONLY what is KNOWN could ACTUALLY be 'true', and 'True'?
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