The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Walker
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Walker »

:lol:

I think there's more to it, and it relates to DAM's notions of non-duality.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:27 am :lol:

I think there's more to it, and it relates to notions of non-duality.
Well, of course. There is no person with Tourette's. The syndrome is real and the person is not.

Take one facet of the real and say it is the only one.

Then call it a philosophy.

Then tell other people.

It's a very penetrative meme. One could say it is viral.
Walker
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Walker »

The method seems to be an assertion of counter-intuitiveness, combined with a cliche, via a series of declarations.

For example, declare that what goes up does not come down ... and then build on that with more layers of counter-intuitive derivatives.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:49 am The method seems to be an assertion of counter-intuitiveness, combined with a cliche, via a series of declarations.

For example, declare that what goes up does not come down ... and then build on that with more layers of counter-intuitive derivatives.
There is a way of experiencing things without the subject object split. My take on this is 1) there's a problem when we take that state of experiencing and say it is the real one and deny other ways of experiencing as also understanding what is real and true. And one notices, with people who do this kind of thing - and it's certainly not just non-dualists who do this, physicalists for example can do this also) - that they stop seeming so complex and human. They communicate in a limited way, their emotions are dulled. They become less human - part of the reason I refer to it using forms of 'viral'.

But another, and in this case kind of funny facet of this is

that when arguing for non-dualism or from that perspective one CONSTANTLY contradicts oneself. Which is why for example, in Zen Buddhism they are careful to restrict babbling about it at a philosophical level.

You end up telling people there is no truth
no access to reality

while, of course, babbling away about what is true and claiming (implicitly at least) that YOU have access to reality.

It's pretty obvious that something else is going on for the people who do this online in philosophy forums.

Just what that is, I don't know.

But I really do consider it a kind of almost literally viral meme, one that reduces the human, once you let it ride you
you are less than you were, in some way. There are many memes that do this.

Viral in the sense that it is parasitic, reduces health and can spread from person to person and take over functions of the host.
Walker
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Walker »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:45 am
Walker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:27 am :lol:

I think there's more to it, and it relates to notions of non-duality.
Well, of course. There is no person with Tourette's. The syndrome is real and the person is not.

Take one facet of the real and say it is the only one.

Then call it a philosophy.

Then tell other people.

It's a very penetrative meme. One could say it is viral.
Take one facet of the real and say it is the only one.
I'm not clear about this second quote, so I'll rephrase.

Take one facet of the real and say it is the only facet that is real.

Is that the same meaning?
Iwannaplato
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:13 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:45 am
Walker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:27 am :lol:

I think there's more to it, and it relates to notions of non-duality.
Well, of course. There is no person with Tourette's. The syndrome is real and the person is not.

Take one facet of the real and say it is the only one.

Then call it a philosophy.

Then tell other people.

It's a very penetrative meme. One could say it is viral.
Take one facet of the real and say it is the only one.
I'm not clear about this second quote, so I'll rephrase.

Take one facet of the real and say it is the only facet that is real.

Is that the same meaning?
I think so. I could have worded it that way, in any case.
Walker
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Walker »

Interesting. In the non-dual sense, what is real does not change.

That narrows the field quite a bit, but it doesn't eliminate everything, which appears to be DAM's assertion.
Iwannaplato
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:23 am Interesting. In the non-dual sense, what is real does not change.
Yes, from 'their' perspective everything is there that we think is there but it's just ONE. But in fact they are not only restricting experiencing the dualisms, but all the stuff that goes with that, like desire and emotions. Now, 'they' will say 'oh, the emotions are part of the phenomena, they come and go' but you'll notice they are dulled, because there is no self (they say) and implicitly they judge people wanting/missing/desiring stuff and also reacting negatively. If you ask about this, some will deny it. The tip of the iceberg is what is said about the non-dual state, the undercurrent judgments of the human (and themselves) comes through in vibe, dulled emotions, long term absence and so on.
That narrows the field quite a bit, but it doesn't eliminate everything, which appears to be DAM's assertion.
Well, I'm sure she'll have something to say about that.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Dontaskme »

The main tenet of this threads topic is to inform oneself that the only way to awaken is to become one with nothingness. And the only way to do that is to not do anything at all. No practice required. “Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.”

This empty Source of everything is not personified, except in this illusory conception.

This being one with nothing can happen quite spontaneously while out walking through a forest or along side a lake. For me personally, it happened just by chance around the age of 6/7 years old. It was a very profound moment that I will never forget, I remember a distinct feeling of being nothingness and also a feeling like I have always existed.


Meditation and spiritual practice by intention to achieve an enlightened or mystical state should be dropped, because in the very act of moving towards awakening, we have already missed it. No amount of meditation will bring one to their nothingness, this will only happen when it is meant to happen and not one second before because it is only life happening and no one is making life happen.

Nothing and nothingness is not implying a dead nihilistic nothing. Nothingness is the very essence of everything. It is the potentiality of all existence. When you hear a sound, the sound has come from silence. Nothingness is the primary and most fundamental source of all being. And it's what everything is.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Dontaskme »

We walk the Razors Edge of Creation in every moment.

There is nothing to understand, nothing to practice, nothing to be. Being needs nothing, being wants nothing.

Wanting and Needing can only pertain to the sense of a 'sepearate self'. In reality, this sensing is unknowable, it is one with the knowing, all one, this mysterious not-knowing. There's just being for no reason or purpose but to be. This is it, it couldn't have been any other way. No one knows this, no one believes this.

In the movie The Razor's Edge, Bill Murry went up to the mountain found a cave read the holy script then burnt the holy script.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087980/


''He had everything and wanted nothing. He learned that he had nothing and wanted everything. He saved the world and then it shattered. The path to enlightenment is as sharp and narrow as a razor's edge.''
Dimebag
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Dimebag »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:14 am We walk the Razors Edge of Creation in every moment.

There is nothing to understand, nothing to practice, nothing to be. Being needs nothing, being wants nothing.

Wanting and Needing can only pertain to the sense of a 'sepearate self'. In reality, this sensing is unknowable, it is one with the knowing, all one, this mysterious not-knowing. There's just being for no reason or purpose but to be. This is it, it couldn't have been any other way. No one knows this, no one believes this.

In the movie The Razor's Edge, Bill Murry went up to the mountain found a cave read the holy script then burnt the holy script.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087980/


''He had everything and wanted nothing. He learned that he had nothing and wanted everything. He saved the world and then it shattered. The path to enlightenment is as sharp and narrow as a razor's edge.''
Do you think there is any use in teachings which attempt to point to what is already here which might be overlooked? Or is it purely down to the right causes and conditions in ones life, and divine luck? For me, it was simple mindfulness which lead me to this path, and then eventually realising this path actually led back to me and to what is. I don’t think they are completely useless, but maybe also not completely effective. Though some are anti productive, many are necessary for many people who don’t happen to have such realisations through luck or chance.
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Dontaskme
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Dontaskme »

Dimebag wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:35 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:14 am We walk the Razors Edge of Creation in every moment.

There is nothing to understand, nothing to practice, nothing to be. Being needs nothing, being wants nothing.

Wanting and Needing can only pertain to the sense of a 'sepearate self'. In reality, this sensing is unknowable, it is one with the knowing, all one, this mysterious not-knowing. There's just being for no reason or purpose but to be. This is it, it couldn't have been any other way. No one knows this, no one believes this.

In the movie The Razor's Edge, Bill Murry went up to the mountain found a cave read the holy script then burnt the holy script.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087980/


''He had everything and wanted nothing. He learned that he had nothing and wanted everything. He saved the world and then it shattered. The path to enlightenment is as sharp and narrow as a razor's edge.''
Do you think there is any use in teachings which attempt to point to what is already here which might be overlooked? Or is it purely down to the right causes and conditions in ones life, and divine luck? For me, it was simple mindfulness which lead me to this path, and then eventually realising this path actually led back to me and to what is. I don’t think they are completely useless, but maybe also not completely effective. Though some are anti productive, many are necessary for many people who don’t happen to have such realisations through luck or chance.
Regarding meditation into the nature of self. Any use is a useless use. There's nothing to see but the seeing that cannot be seen, the observer never changes, what is looked upon is changing all the time, so the observer itself cannot be overlooked. The observer is the looking that can never be looked upon, the observer can only be known to be that which never changes, and that which never changes is unknowable by definition. And that's the divine paradox.

To question the 'sense of separation' ( the individual self ) which is an illusion, is to inquire into the nature of being.

This self inquiry turns out to be a myth. It goes nowhere, and can only lead one back to the one who questions. There are no answers to that one question simply because if there were an answer, questions would never arise. So here there can only be questions, which could only be 'one question' of which would contain all our answers.

The 'sense of self' is a known finite appearance within what is this unknowable reality. It is impossible to know the underlying fundamental nature of the universe ( the ground of all being ) because it is Infinite and the mind which is 'thought' cannot hold anything Infinite.
'Thought' is finite, and 'thought' is the creator of the thinker.

Infinite Consciousness cannot reveal anything about the nature of existence because it is not manifested and that which is manifested (known) cannot understand the unmanifested. ( the known know nothing in this context )

'The World as Will and Representation' - Schopenhauer came to the conclusion that our senses actually hide absolute reality from us, so that we can make sense of the world. In reality the whole world is an undifferentiated 'thing in and of itself. This is very similar to what was mentioned about the observer being unchanged and is a conclusion Schopenhauer reached independently, though several religious traditions like Advaita and Buddhism have been saying the same for years.

Nothing in this world can be reversed. Or rehearsed. You can't actually take back anything that you ever do. Therefore, it is obvious that No one knows anything. This is both freeing and terrifying at the same time.

All that does apparently seem to be known is through memory. Knowledge is memory, which is dead stuff. And dead stuff knows nothing. Therefore, knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of existence.
Dimebag
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Dimebag »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:27 am
Dimebag wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:35 am
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:14 am We walk the Razors Edge of Creation in every moment.

There is nothing to understand, nothing to practice, nothing to be. Being needs nothing, being wants nothing.

Wanting and Needing can only pertain to the sense of a 'sepearate self'. In reality, this sensing is unknowable, it is one with the knowing, all one, this mysterious not-knowing. There's just being for no reason or purpose but to be. This is it, it couldn't have been any other way. No one knows this, no one believes this.

In the movie The Razor's Edge, Bill Murry went up to the mountain found a cave read the holy script then burnt the holy script.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087980/


''He had everything and wanted nothing. He learned that he had nothing and wanted everything. He saved the world and then it shattered. The path to enlightenment is as sharp and narrow as a razor's edge.''
Do you think there is any use in teachings which attempt to point to what is already here which might be overlooked? Or is it purely down to the right causes and conditions in ones life, and divine luck? For me, it was simple mindfulness which lead me to this path, and then eventually realising this path actually led back to me and to what is. I don’t think they are completely useless, but maybe also not completely effective. Though some are anti productive, many are necessary for many people who don’t happen to have such realisations through luck or chance.
Regarding meditation into the nature of self. Any use is a useless use. There's nothing to see but the seeing that cannot be seen, the observer never changes, what is looked upon is changing all the time, so the observer itself cannot be overlooked. The observer is the looking that can never be looked upon, the observer can only be known to be that which never changes, and that which never changes is unknowable by definition. And that's the divine paradox.

To question the 'sense of separation' ( the individual self ) which is an illusion, is to inquire into the nature of being.

This self inquiry turns out to be a myth. It goes nowhere, and can only lead one back to the one who questions. There are no answers to that one question simply because if there were an answer, questions would never arise. So here there can only be questions, which could only be 'one question' of which would contain all our answers.

The 'sense of self' is a known finite appearance within what is this unknowable reality. It is impossible to know the underlying fundamental nature of the universe ( the ground of all being ) because it is Infinite and the mind which is 'thought' cannot hold anything Infinite.
'Thought' is finite, and 'thought' is the creator of the thinker.

Infinite Consciousness cannot reveal anything about the nature of existence because it is not manifested and that which is manifested (known) cannot understand the unmanifested. ( the known know nothing in this context )

'The World as Will and Representation' - Schopenhauer came to the conclusion that our senses actually hide absolute reality from us, so that we can make sense of the world. In reality the whole world is an undifferentiated 'thing in and of itself. This is very similar to what was mentioned about the observer being unchanged and is a conclusion Schopenhauer reached independently, though several religious traditions like Advaita and Buddhism have been saying the same for years.

Nothing in this world can be reversed. Or rehearsed. You can't actually take back anything that you ever do. Therefore, it is obvious that No one knows anything. This is both freeing and terrifying at the same time.

All that does apparently seem to be known is through memory. Knowledge is memory, which is dead stuff. And dead stuff knows nothing. Therefore, knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of existence.
I think there must be an understanding by the mind, that the self can be observed. Once that occurs, it sets a chain in motion whereby there is an apparent splitting off of the apparent subject from its identified mind objects, a process of self negation.

This process continues, but beginning with thoughts, it sees these arise without its own intention. A process of self watching occurs. The self which it believed it was, is negated, until it’s self understanding is that of objectless subject.

When this reaches this point, it seems a kind of barrier is reached, and the self understanding of the self as being a separate causal agent seems to disintegrate.

Where formerly the point of self existence was a focussed and localised one, now the self seems to evaporate and distribute within the objects themselves, such that there is no separation between the subject and object. This was actually a kind of lens the senses were passing through, which is now changed or removed. The non dual truth was the underlying reality to begin with, and it was the belief in being a separate localised agent, which can direct attention and focus it, which was seen to be an illusion based on that lens of self and other.

So the underlying non dual reality is the underlying reality, but certain perceptual lenses seem to need disrupting and seeing as lenses.

I think THAT, is what spiritual practices are doing, or should be doing.
Walker
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Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Walker »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:27 am Regarding meditation into the nature of self. Any use is a useless use. There's nothing to see but the seeing that cannot be seen, the observer never changes, what is looked upon is changing all the time, so the observer itself cannot be overlooked. The observer is the looking that can never be looked upon, the observer can only be known to be that which never changes, and that which never changes is unknowable by definition. And that's the divine paradox.
:roll:

Counter-inuitive declarations.
No reasoning or philosophy required.

The least is the greatest.
Silence is the loudest.
The nearest is the farthest.
The happiest are the saddest.
The weakest is the strongest.

Oy. Too much of that might damage the brain.

'Tis the myth of philosophy.
Iwannaplato
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: The myth of spiritual meditation practice.

Post by Iwannaplato »

Walker wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:49 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:27 am Regarding meditation into the nature of self. Any use is a useless use. There's nothing to see but the seeing that cannot be seen, the observer never changes, what is looked upon is changing all the time, so the observer itself cannot be overlooked. The observer is the looking that can never be looked upon, the observer can only be known to be that which never changes, and that which never changes is unknowable by definition. And that's the divine paradox.
:roll:

Counter-inuitive declarations.
No reasoning or philosophy required.

The least is the greatest.
Silence is the loudest.
The nearest is the farthest.
The happiest are the saddest.
The weakest is the strongest.

Oy. Too much of that might damage the brain.

'Tis the myth of philosophy.
dic
It's an anti-life meme, just seeking to recreate itself. All sorts of fluffy abstractions, and yes contradictions, denials and judgments. It's like a hallmark card of 'profundity'. Like brain fog from chemo.
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