Thinking is the ability of mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
bahman
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
Age
Posts: 11007
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by Age »

bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
The human brain is just an organ that is able to gather knowledge, and then remember some of that knowledge.

But, a human brain can only put out what has been put into it. Whereas, thee Mind, of which there is ONLY One, is the 'Thing' that has the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely ANY and EVERY thing.

EVERY new thought, idea, invention, plan, and creation comes from thee Truly OPEN Mind. The brain just stores that new knowledge, like a book or a computer does.
popeye1945
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
Bahman,

I do not think the logic stands up here. The saying that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, does not indicate that that which emerges is part of any give part, but is the product of the parts of the collective. Mind is not of substance, it is the immaterial product of the brain/body unity and cannot be said to be the property of individual contributing aspects thereof.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 13423
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by henry quirk »

bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
mind (is an) irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause

yep

👍
FlashDangerpants
Posts: 3654
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by FlashDangerpants »

bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have.
Lol. Hydrogen atoms have no property of wetness, oxygen atoms have no property of wetness, therefore water isn't wet?
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:15 pm
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
Bahman,

I do not think the logic stands up here. The saying that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, does not indicate that that which emerges is part of any give part, but is the product of the parts of the collective. Mind is not of substance, it is the immaterial product of the brain/body unity and cannot be said to be the property of individual contributing aspects thereof.
Strong emergence is a phenomenon in which a system does have a property that parts do not have. I am arguing that the strong emergence is not possible therefore thinking, in case humans, is a property of parts/minds.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:00 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have. The brain thinks. Therefore, thinking is the property of parts/minds (mind being irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause).
mind (is an) irreducible substance with abilities to experience, think, decide and cause

yep

👍
Yep. :mrgreen:
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:08 am
bahman wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:00 pm There is no strong emergence (this is discussed here). This means that the brain cannot possibly have a property that the parts don't have.
Lol. Hydrogen atoms have no property of wetness, oxygen atoms have no property of wetness, therefore water isn't wet?
What is called wetness is not anything but surface tension. The surface tension of water is a function of the properties of parts of water. Therefore, there is no strong emergence.
popeye1945
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by popeye1945 »

Surface tension has nothing to do with the constitution of water, I believe the tension depends upon what the water is contained in.
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:59 pm Surface tension has nothing to do with the constitution of water, I believe the tension depends upon what the water is contained in.
It has. You can in fact calculate the surface tension of water in terms of the properties of parts of water. This means that the surface tension is a function of the properties of parts.
popeye1945
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by popeye1945 »

bahman wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:44 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:59 pm Surface tension has nothing to do with the constitution of water, I believe the tension depends upon what the water is contained in.
It has. You can in fact calculate the surface tension of water in terms of the properties of parts of water. This means that the surface tension is a function of the properties of parts.
Bahman,
Thanks for the heads up on that!! One assumption bites the dust.
Dimebag
Posts: 457
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:12 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by Dimebag »

How about an electronic circuit? The individual components alone cannot achieve the function of an electric circuit, for example, calculating a mathematical function, but when put together in the correct order they can do something that none of the parts alone could do, nor did they have calculation latent in their function.

Therefore, something truly emergent is possible.

I think what Bahman is discounting is function and process.
popeye1945
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by popeye1945 »

Dimebag wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:48 pm How about an electronic circuit? The individual components alone cannot achieve the function of an electric circuit, for example, calculating a mathematical function, but when put together in the correct order they can do something that none of the parts alone could do, nor did they have calculation latent in their function.

Therefore, something truly emergent is possible.

I think what Bahman is discounting is function and process.
Dimebag,
Could you expand on those thoughts a little more!
User avatar
bahman
Posts: 6528
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by bahman »

Dimebag wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:48 pm How about an electronic circuit? The individual components alone cannot achieve the function of an electric circuit, for example, calculating a mathematical function, but when put together in the correct order they can do something that none of the parts alone could do, nor did they have calculation latent in their function.

Therefore, something truly emergent is possible.

I think what Bahman is discounting is function and process.
The function of a calculator is a function of parts. We design them. Therefore, there is no strong emergence.
popeye1945
Posts: 474
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Thinking is the ability of mind

Post by popeye1945 »

"Thinking is the ability of the mind." No, thinking is the ability of the organism, consciousness is not limited to the brain and again mind is not a substance or object in the physical world. The organism is object in the duality of subject and object but without ultimate reality/as opposed to apparent reality there would be nothing no consciousness no organism no physical world as we know it. Thinking is a much more complex process than that limited to the focus of the brain. As has long been stated in western philosophy, subject and object can never be separate entities to a conscious subject. When subject and object are talked of as a duality it is only for convenience purposes to aid in our understanding.
Post Reply