Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am

bahman wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:25 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm

And what is mediator (something which causes conscious state given physical state)? If your answer is non, then physical states are conscious states.
With your question you have realized what the Explanatory Gap and the Hard Problem of Consciousness is all about.
You didn't answer the question. I don't see anything except matter which could cause experience or qualia.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm

How do you know that neurons firing do not have property of redness? Where else the property of redness could come from?
The Conscious Property of Redness seems to be something that is not in the Physical World that Science can explain right now. Think about the Redness of the Red experience. What is that? How do we See it? How could just Neural Activity produce it. Physicalists insist that the Redness experience must be in the Neurons but they cannot say how this could happen. This oneness of Physical Phenomena and Conscious Phenomena seems to be more of a Hope than any kind of Scientific finding. it is actually more Scientific and Logical to start with the premise that Consciousness is in some separate Category of Phenomena than to start with the premise that Consciousness has to be in the Neurons.
We don't know how the redness is created but we can without doubt say that that is due to neuron firing.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm

If you are materialist then conscious mind is nothing than experience of redness which this is the result of neural activity. Mind in dualist framework perceives what is produced by physical activity, so called qualia.
I am a Dualist. I recognize the reality of Qualia as real Phenomena that must be explained.
Matter creates qualia. We don't have anything extra.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 3:10 pm
bahman wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 4:19 pm

My test works if we accept that there is minimally a one to one map between physical state and conscious state if you believe that they are different.
But you are always only measuring Neural Activity, which is the Easy Problem of Consciousness. You are never directly measuring the Conscious experience which is the Hard Problem of Consciousness. You are always just assuming particular Conscious experiences from your Neural Activity measurements. You might think that measuring the actual Conscious experience is absurd and impossible, but this is what Science must eventually figure out how to do. It is the Hard Problem of Consciousness.
What a person report is a part of our measurement. We don't need to touch a hot thing to believe that it is hot when there is a thermometer.
You say Matter creates Qualia and there isn't anything extra. The Qualia is the extra thing.

If Science could explain how Qualia comes from Matter then the Hard Problem and the Explanatory Gap would be solved.

But you do have to touch a hot thing at least once to understand what the sensation is.

When you map between Physical State and Conscious State you are only showing what the Neural Correlates of Consciousness are. You are not describing any kind of mechanism that shows how the Physical State produces the Conscious State. After you map the Physical State to the Conscious State you have a Huge Explanatory Gap between the two.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Wed May 09, 2018 11:30 pm

The ability to replicate and synthesize new symbols where the prior symbols are contained in the new symbols with the new symbols branching into further symbols. In simpler terms the ability to synthesize a language with the language mirroring its original source.

The synthesis of further symbols given any random variable, ie synthesis of a structure from "chaos", would provide a "creative median" for consciousness.

The ability for the phenomenon to reflect on its own actions, those of the immediate environment, and form a synthesis between the two where the phenomenon "A" changes according to environment "B" while "A" simultaneously changes "B".

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Thu May 10, 2018 1:41 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
You say Matter creates Qualia and there isn't anything extra. The Qualia is the extra thing.
I think qualia is not a thing. Matter moves and that affects mind. The affection is what we call qualia.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
If Science could explain how Qualia comes from Matter then the Hard Problem and the Explanatory Gap would be solved.
The key point is that we know that neurons firing causes qualia.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
But you do have to touch a hot thing at least once to understand what the sensation is.
Yes. That is why I suggest two persons in the test, one of them being the person who doubts about the existence of litmus test.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
When you map between Physical State and Conscious State you are only showing what the Neural Correlates of Consciousness are. You are not describing any kind of mechanism that shows how the Physical State produces the Conscious State. After you map the Physical State to the Conscious State you have a Huge Explanatory Gap between the two.
We don't need to show how physical state produces conscious state in order to convince people about the test. The only thing that we need is to agree that there exists a one to one map.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri May 11, 2018 12:45 am

bahman wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
You say Matter creates Qualia and there isn't anything extra. The Qualia is the extra thing.
I think qualia is not a thing. Matter moves and that affects mind. The affection is what we call qualia.
You say that like you have never contemplated the Redness of Red. You just too easily dismiss the actual Conscious experience. The Conscious experience itself, standing alone, is something to study. It is Something.
bahman wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
If Science could explain how Qualia comes from Matter then the Hard Problem and the Explanatory Gap would be solved.
The key point is that we know that neurons firing causes qualia.
Science has known that for a hundred years. That's the Easy Problem. The Hard Problem is explaining how Neural Activity creates the Conscious experience.
bahman wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
But you do have to touch a hot thing at least once to understand what the sensation is.
Yes. That is why I suggest two persons in the test, one of them being the person who doubts about the existence of litmus test.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
When you map between Physical State and Conscious State you are only showing what the Neural Correlates of Consciousness are. You are not describing any kind of mechanism that shows how the Physical State produces the Conscious State. After you map the Physical State to the Conscious State you have a Huge Explanatory Gap between the two.
We don't need to show how physical state produces conscious state in order to convince people about the test. The only thing that we need is to agree that there exists a one to one map.[]
It's probably a good exercise to create a better and better mapping like you want to do but Science has been working on the mapping, like I said, for a hundred years. The mapping is the Easy Problem. The Hard Problem is the Problem that needs to be solved.

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Fri May 11, 2018 6:19 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:45 am
Science has known that for a hundred years. That's the Easy Problem. The Hard Problem is explaining how Neural Activity creates the Conscious experience.
Qualia doesn't have essence therefore it is an illusion.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
When you map between Physical State and Conscious State you are only showing what the Neural Correlates of Consciousness are. You are not describing any kind of mechanism that shows how the Physical State produces the Conscious State. After you map the Physical State to the Conscious State you have a Huge Explanatory Gap between the two.
As I mentioned you don't need to show how physical state produces the conscious state since we just want to show that two persons experience.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
It's probably a good exercise to create a better and better mapping like you want to do but Science has been working on the mapping, like I said, for a hundred years. The mapping is the Easy Problem. The Hard Problem is the Problem that needs to be solved.
As I mentioned the existence of map is enough to ensure that the test works.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri May 11, 2018 8:52 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 6:19 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 12:45 am
Science has known that for a hundred years. That's the Easy Problem. The Hard Problem is explaining how Neural Activity creates the Conscious experience.
Qualia doesn't have essence therefore it is an illusion.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
When you map between Physical State and Conscious State you are only showing what the Neural Correlates of Consciousness are. You are not describing any kind of mechanism that shows how the Physical State produces the Conscious State. After you map the Physical State to the Conscious State you have a Huge Explanatory Gap between the two.
As I mentioned you don't need to show how physical state produces the conscious state since we just want to show that two persons experience.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:35 am
It's probably a good exercise to create a better and better mapping like you want to do but Science has been working on the mapping, like I said, for a hundred years. The mapping is the Easy Problem. The Hard Problem is the Problem that needs to be solved.
As I mentioned the existence of map is enough to ensure that the test works.
Qualia is the only thing you know. The redness of Red is only in the Qualia. This means that Red Qualia has the Property of Redness. There is no Property of Redness in the Physical world. It is only in the Illusion as you say of Qualia. Think about the Redness itself and understand it better. When you can see the realness of the Redness of the Red you won't be able to so casually dismiss it as an Illusion. By the way, what do you mean by Illusion?

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Fri May 11, 2018 9:35 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:52 pm
Qualia is the only thing you know. The redness of Red is only in the Qualia. This means that Red Qualia has the Property of Redness. There is no Property of Redness in the Physical world. It is only in the Illusion as you say of Qualia. Think about the Redness itself and understand it better. When you can see the realness of the Redness of the Red you won't be able to so casually dismiss it as an Illusion. By the way, what do you mean by Illusion?
The difference between me and you is that you believe that qualia is something and I don't. By something I mean a thing which can affect you. Qualia to me is the result of matter activity. Mind is only disturbed by matter activity and there is nothing between. Disturbance is what I call qualia. By illusion I mean something which has not an essence and cannot basically affect mind.

HexHammer
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by HexHammer » Sat May 12, 2018 1:49 am

QuantumT wrote:
Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Revisiting the age old question:
I am conscious, but how can I know for sure, that others are too?

How can we tell?

What would you consider to be evidence of consciousness?
Irrelevant questions 1/10.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat May 12, 2018 12:44 pm

bahman wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 9:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 8:52 pm
Qualia is the only thing you know. The redness of Red is only in the Qualia. This means that Red Qualia has the Property of Redness. There is no Property of Redness in the Physical world. It is only in the Illusion as you say of Qualia. Think about the Redness itself and understand it better. When you can see the realness of the Redness of the Red you won't be able to so casually dismiss it as an Illusion. By the way, what do you mean by Illusion?
The difference between me and you is that you believe that qualia is something and I don't. By something I mean a thing which can affect you. Qualia to me is the result of matter activity. Mind is only disturbed by matter activity and there is nothing between. Disturbance is what I call qualia. By illusion I mean something which has not an essence and cannot basically affect mind.
Take the process of Sight for example. There are numerous Visual Cortex areas that are activated when a particular scene is being viewed. But it is the Visual Qualia that lets you actually See the scene. Without the Qualia you would be blind, because Neural Activity alone is not enough to let you See. To say that the Qualia has no effect on the Mind is insane denial of the purpose of the Qualia. The Qualia is the final stage in the Visual process that enables you to See. You would not be able to move around in the World without the Visual Qualia.

The Qualia seems to be generated by the Neural Activity but it is certainly more than just an Illusion. The Primacy of the Visual Qualia for Sight must be understood. The Qualia itself must be explained. The Qualia is a Phenomenon in an of itself.

gaffo
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by gaffo » Sat May 12, 2018 9:39 pm

Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 1:12 am
Atla wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:48 am
Western philosophy is a dead end because they take "I am conscious" too literally. Assuming waaay too much.
In truth the only thing that can be said is that something other than nothing is happening (meant in the vaguest possible sense).
if you can show this (prove) empirically, i'd welcome it.

;-).
Well duh,
fab! i like spunk, keep it coming.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
many of my comments on this forum are about debunking Western philosophy in general, but it's a huge topic overall..
oh, i did not know this. I've not been here all that long, and so still ignorant about this place and her members here posting.

so bare with me and be kind to a newbie - lol.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
I guess the relevant part here is that scientific evidence confirms that no separate "I" is to be found in the head or anywhere else. And there is also no evidence that consciousness in general is limited to the head, that's just some weird old conjecture. Scientific investigation is restricted to the easy problems of consciousness, but no Magical Barrier around the brain was found so far.
All "scientific evidence" is via my head!

which might all there is or not - to assume former is self evident (you only know "scientific evidence" after you learn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to assume the latter requires faith (which is outside of logic).

(i.e. that scientific evidence) as a "Thing" with reality outside your "head"/"mind"/"feet" (etc......no matter the anatomy if you get my "Drift" even those concepts are still within your "consciensness" - where that is (since I'm a Solipsist - so you are me just talking to myself and your mind/head/feet/understanding are just a part of me talking to myself via the same mind/head/feet/etc.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
So people who take "I am conscious" too literally, are forced to believe in an invisible, immaterial mind or something of that sort. The immaterial mind is also necessary to keep their stupid solipsism alive.
lol - whatever. you lack conception of what Solipsism is and the limits of empirical proof via logic.


i.e. you have a missconception of what Solipsism is.

IMO - i thank you for reply and like your "spunk" - lol.

keep it coming ;-).

Atla
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by Atla » Sun May 13, 2018 8:15 am

gaffo wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:39 pm
Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
gaffo wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 1:12 am


if you can show this (prove) empirically, i'd welcome it.

;-).
Well duh,
fab! i like spunk, keep it coming.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
many of my comments on this forum are about debunking Western philosophy in general, but it's a huge topic overall..
oh, i did not know this. I've not been here all that long, and so still ignorant about this place and her members here posting.

so bare with me and be kind to a newbie - lol.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
I guess the relevant part here is that scientific evidence confirms that no separate "I" is to be found in the head or anywhere else. And there is also no evidence that consciousness in general is limited to the head, that's just some weird old conjecture. Scientific investigation is restricted to the easy problems of consciousness, but no Magical Barrier around the brain was found so far.
All "scientific evidence" is via my head!

which might all there is or not - to assume former is self evident (you only know "scientific evidence" after you learn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to assume the latter requires faith (which is outside of logic).

(i.e. that scientific evidence) as a "Thing" with reality outside your "head"/"mind"/"feet" (etc......no matter the anatomy if you get my "Drift" even those concepts are still within your "consciensness" - where that is (since I'm a Solipsist - so you are me just talking to myself and your mind/head/feet/understanding are just a part of me talking to myself via the same mind/head/feet/etc.


Atla wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:15 pm
So people who take "I am conscious" too literally, are forced to believe in an invisible, immaterial mind or something of that sort. The immaterial mind is also necessary to keep their stupid solipsism alive.
lol - whatever. you lack conception of what Solipsism is and the limits of empirical proof via logic.


i.e. you have a missconception of what Solipsism is.

IMO - i thank you for reply and like your "spunk" - lol.

keep it coming ;-).
I don't see how we can ever say anything at all without some kind of faith. That there is a separate you, that you are or have a separate "I" / mind / brain / head, is a belief too. How do you know that this is actually "your" experience?

So we need some faith, and once we start applying faith, solipsism quickly collapses as nonsense. I also see no point in talking to solipsists; after all they think I'm just a part of their imagination.

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:44 pm
Take the process of Sight for example. There are numerous Visual Cortex areas that are activated when a particular scene is being viewed. But it is the Visual Qualia that lets you actually See the scene. Without the Qualia you would be blind, because Neural Activity alone is not enough to let you See. To say that the Qualia has no effect on the Mind is insane denial of the purpose of the Qualia. The Qualia is the final stage in the Visual process that enables you to See. You would not be able to move around in the World without the Visual Qualia.

The Qualia seems to be generated by the Neural Activity but it is certainly more than just an Illusion. The Primacy of the Visual Qualia for Sight must be understood. The Qualia itself must be explained. The Qualia is a Phenomenon in an of itself.
Can qualia exist without matter's motion? If yes, why could not we consider it as an affection to mind?

SteveKlinko
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:31 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:44 pm
Take the process of Sight for example. There are numerous Visual Cortex areas that are activated when a particular scene is being viewed. But it is the Visual Qualia that lets you actually See the scene. Without the Qualia you would be blind, because Neural Activity alone is not enough to let you See. To say that the Qualia has no effect on the Mind is insane denial of the purpose of the Qualia. The Qualia is the final stage in the Visual process that enables you to See. You would not be able to move around in the World without the Visual Qualia.

The Qualia seems to be generated by the Neural Activity but it is certainly more than just an Illusion. The Primacy of the Visual Qualia for Sight must be understood. The Qualia itself must be explained. The Qualia is a Phenomenon in an of itself.
Can qualia exist without matter's motion? If yes, why could not we consider it as an affection to mind?
I don't think we can point to a Scientific case where there is Qualia with no Neural Activity, but I'm not convinced that Qualia can't be autonomous. Not sure what the second question is asking.

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bahman
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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by bahman » Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm
I don't think we can point to a Scientific case where there is Qualia with no Neural Activity, but I'm not convinced that Qualia can't be autonomous.
I think that is mind which is autonomous.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm
Not sure what the second question is asking.
Sorry I should have said "If no, why could not we consider it as an affection to mind?". I hope that makes sense right now.

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Re: Could we make a "litmus test" for true consciousness?

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri May 18, 2018 1:37 am

bahman wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:30 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm
I don't think we can point to a Scientific case where there is Qualia with no Neural Activity, but I'm not convinced that Qualia can't be autonomous.
I think that is mind which is autonomous.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:16 pm
Not sure what the second question is asking.
Sorry I should have said "If no, why could not we consider it as an affection to mind?". I hope that makes sense right now.
The origin of the Conscious Mind is unknown but it looks like it is spawned from the Physical Mind early on in development. The Conscious Mind is connected to the Physical Mind. The Conscious Mind is a further processing stage after Physical Mind (Brain) processing. Because the Conscious Mind is a further processing stage it gets its input from the Physical Mind. The Qualia exists in the Conscious Mind, not in the Physical Mind. When Neural Activity happens in the Physical Mind the Inter Mind Detects it and converts it into the Qualia that the Conscious Mind can process.

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