The Inter Mind

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:53 am

PauloL wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:03 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:59 pm
I agree that what I say sounds like a Soul. But it is really quite different from the religious Soul which always seems to be a wispy transparent copy of the Physical being. I think the Conscious Mind could be a whole new existence when it is released from the control of the Brain. Scientists should not be afraid to pursue such things if the logic leads them there.
x.............................................................................................................x




..................... True.
..................... The only problem is:
..................... Scientific data doesn't support pursuing such things,
..................... so logic doesn't lead them there.





x.............................................................................................................x
I think the logic is there that should lead them to think in different ways about Consciousness but they are not paying attention.

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PauloL
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by PauloL » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:18 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:53 am
I hope so. But I see nothing. They only discuss betwixt monism, dualism and something inconsequential in between.

Monism doesn't explain the last stronghold of consciousness, Neuroscientist's proto-self, in which dualism might gain ground, but again the proto-self is so little I guess no one will fire a rocket.

I might be using Descartes mind, if I believed reincarnation, but what's the benefit for Descartes? Mine is enough clear: I need a proto-self.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:44 am

PauloL wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:18 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:53 am
I hope so. But I see nothing. They only discuss betwixt monism, dualism and something inconsequential in between.

Monism doesn't explain the last stronghold of consciousness, Neuroscientist's proto-self, in which dualism might gain ground, but again the proto-self is so little I guess no one will fire a rocket.

I might be using Descartes mind, if I believed reincarnation, but what's the benefit for Descartes? Mine is enough clear: I need a proto-self.
For me it's all about Conscious Sensory perception. The Conscious experience of the color Red, and all colors, and Light in general continues to fascinate me. How is it that the Self experiences these things? What is Red? The Light we see is Conscious Light that is inside us not the Physical Light that is outside us, The Light we see is inside us and must therefore be part of what we are. I know the Self is the Light but it still doesn't seem to help explain what the Self is.

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PauloL
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by PauloL » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:47 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:44 am
That's what I'm discussing in another thread a propos an article from this month's PhilosophyNow.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=22568

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm

Here is the basic question that this thread asks ... Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens.
2) A Conscious experience of Red happens.

How does 1 produce 2? The old Dodge that the Red experience is just an Illusion doesn't work anymore. Even if you think it is an Illusion then what is the thing that experiences the Illusion?

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:30 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm
Here is the basic question that this thread asks ... Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens.
2) A Conscious experience of Red happens.

How does 1 produce 2?
I don't know, but I can only guess it happens like this...

Image

What do you think, and do you agree, or do you have another idea how 1 produces 2?

The white light being the Father aka (Un-conscious Awareness)...the triangle being the Mother (Conscious surface Mind)....and the colour being the Child...the effect.

Notice the Father stays out of the scene completely...he's like fuck this drama, I'm out, and leaves it all to the female, the mother to cope with, for she's always up for it, in it, so to speak.. she knows he's already got her back anyway...shes never in any danger, and she kind of loves the drama, so he lets her get on with it....and is why she elects for it in the first place..(just kidding :wink: )



SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm
The old Dodge that the Red experience is just an Illusion doesn't work anymore. Even if you think it is an Illusion then what is the thing that experiences the Illusion?
I don't think the Red experience is an illusion no more than a rainbow appearing in the sky is an illusion. They obviously exist Steve.

So now all we have to do is understand what is experiencing the experience of Red, and the rainbow? ..

My answer Steve is you are, I AM, we are the experiencing.

Do you have any other ideas of who it is that is experiencing ?

.

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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:01 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:30 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm
Here is the basic question that this thread asks ... Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens.
2) A Conscious experience of Red happens.

How does 1 produce 2?
I don't know, but I can only guess it happens like this...

Image

What do you think, and do you agree, or do you have another idea how 1 produces 2?

The white light being the Father aka (Un-conscious Awareness)...the triangle being the Mother (Conscious surface Mind)....and the colour being the Child...the effect.

Notice the Father stays out of the scene completely...he's like fuck this drama, I'm out, and leaves it all to the female, the mother to cope with, for she's always up for it, in it, so to speak.. she knows he's already got her back anyway...shes never in any danger, and she kind of loves the drama, so he lets her get on with it....and is why she elects for it in the first place..(just kidding :wink: )



SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm
The old Dodge that the Red experience is just an Illusion doesn't work anymore. Even if you think it is an Illusion then what is the thing that experiences the Illusion?
I don't think the Red experience is an illusion no more than a rainbow appearing in the sky is an illusion. They obviously exist Steve.

So now all we have to do is understand what is experiencing the experience of Red, and the rainbow? ..

My answer Steve is you are, I AM, we are the experiencing.

Do you have any other ideas of who it is that is experiencing ?

.
I ask the question because I don't know the answer. The answer would solve the Explanatory Gap problem of Conscious experience. Since the Red experience is something that is inside the Conscious Mind, the Red must be part of the Conscious Mind. The Conscious Mind is part of what we are and the Red is part of the Conscious Mind so we can only conclude that the Red is part of what we are.

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:35 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:01 pm
I ask the question because I don't know the answer. The answer would solve the Explanatory Gap problem of Conscious experience. Since the Red experience is something that is inside the Conscious Mind, the Red must be part of the Conscious Mind. The Conscious Mind is part of what we are and the Red is part of the Conscious Mind so we can only conclude that the Red is part of what we are.
I think you have answered your own question.

There are no answers to an unquestioned life.

A question can only arise to a separate self...then the only question would be is.. are you that is seeing the colour Red, separate from the Red experience? ..and you'll see that the answer is already contained in the question, is it not?

There is nothing outside of you that is not in you..do you see this?

Image

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:01 pm
I ask the question because I don't know the answer. The answer would solve the Explanatory Gap problem of Conscious experience. Since the Red experience is something that is inside the Conscious Mind, the Red must be part of the Conscious Mind. The Conscious Mind is part of what we are and the Red is part of the Conscious Mind so we can only conclude that the Red is part of what we are.
I think you have answered your own question.

There are no answers to an unquestioned life.

A question can only arise to a separate self...then the only question would be is.. are you that is seeing the colour Red, separate from the Red experience? ..and you'll see that the answer is already contained in the question, is it not?

There is nothing outside of you that is not in you..do you see this?

Image

.
I still recognize a separate Outside World and Inside World.

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:01 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:35 pm
I still recognize a separate Outside World and Inside World.
I know.

But only you can close the gap.

If you believe that gap is going to be closed by someone else, then ask yourself, how have they closed it?

And if they can close it, then so can you.

Good luck Steve.



.

SteveKlinko
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:07 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:01 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:35 pm
I still recognize a separate Outside World and Inside World.
I know.

But only you can close the gap.

If you believe that gap is going to be closed by someone else, then ask yourself, how have they closed it?

And if they can close it, then so can you.

Good luck Steve.



.
Just the fact that Science has so much trouble with Consciousness tells me that Consciousness is a separate thing apart from the Physical World. Science deals with Physical World phenomenon. I think if Consciousness was part of the Physical World Science would have had lots of things to say about it by now. The absolute zero understanding that Science has about Consciousness shows me that Consciousness must not be a Physical World phenomenon. So I think that it is pretty clear that there are Physical World phenomenon and Conscious World phenomenon. They seem to be separate things.

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:08 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:07 pm
Just the fact that Science has so much trouble with Consciousness tells me that Consciousness is a separate thing apart from the Physical World.
It's because consciousness is not a thing...science only deals in things Steve.

The mind is the interface between the unknown no thing aka awareness and the known thing aka mental construct of no thing known as known, aka conscious of....or put another way awareness aware of itself...no thing aware of the no - thing it is. The two opposites have to exist in the same moment...the mind is also in the same moment as well it acts as the divider of unknown into to known. And the mind can also reverse this understanding the other way around by knowing is it unknown.

It works both ways..the mind is the central point between two infinities... Right NOW the future becomes the past in the same instant...the future never happens, it's always AND EVER this non-moving non-aging -timeless eternal now. Now can never complete because it's a circle going round and round itself forever.



SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:07 pm
Science deals with Physical World phenomenon. I think if Consciousness was part of the Physical World Science would have had lots of things to say about it by now. The absolute zero understanding that Science has about Consciousness shows me that Consciousness must not be a Physical World phenomenon. So I think that it is pretty clear that there are Physical World phenomenon and Conscious World phenomenon. They seem to be separate things.
They seem to be, but they are not, they are one and the same no thing. The thing is in the no..and the no is in the thing.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:56 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:07 pm
Just the fact that Science has so much trouble with Consciousness tells me that Consciousness is a separate thing apart from the Physical World.
It's because consciousness is not a thing...science only deals in things Steve.

The mind is the interface between the unknown no thing aka awareness and the known thing aka mental construct of no thing known as known, aka conscious of....or put another way awareness aware of itself...no thing aware of the no - thing it is. The two opposites have to exist in the same moment...the mind is also in the same moment as well it acts as the divider of unknown into to known. And the mind can also reverse this understanding the other way around by knowing is it unknown.

It works both ways..the mind is the central point between two infinities... Right NOW the future becomes the past in the same instant...the future never happens, it's always AND EVER this non-moving non-aging -timeless eternal now. Now can never complete because it's a circle going round and round itself forever.



SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:07 pm
Science deals with Physical World phenomenon. I think if Consciousness was part of the Physical World Science would have had lots of things to say about it by now. The absolute zero understanding that Science has about Consciousness shows me that Consciousness must not be a Physical World phenomenon. So I think that it is pretty clear that there are Physical World phenomenon and Conscious World phenomenon. They seem to be separate things.
They seem to be, but they are not, they are one and the same no thing. The thing is in the no..and the no is in the thing.

.
But the simple question remains: How is it that we experience the color Red? What is Conscious Red? I need this answer before I can move on to anything else. This is the Brick Wall that Science and Philosophy have hit.

Dontaskme
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:04 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:56 am
But the simple question remains: How is it that we experience the color Red? What is Conscious Red? I need this answer before I can move on to anything else. This is the Brick Wall that Science and Philosophy have hit.
But Steve, it's a hard question for the one who want's to know, but a simple question for the one who already knows.


What the intuitive's have noticed is that there is this sense of aliveness... and then there is a notion within that aliveness that says ..I AM alive.

Even though the I AM is prior to any inference about it...so any inference must be inclusive within the prior state, indicating the illusory nature of inference.

Any questions about the absolute is absurd - it's like how can the relative know anything about the absolute....there is only the absolute that cannot be known, it is the knowing in the experiencing of aliveness.

It's like HOW is this feeling of being alive even possible, HOW am I even alive?

The HOW cannot be known or answered, intuition dictates that there was no one here at the beginning and there will be no one here at the end. And since there is no one here in the beginning and no one here at the end then HOW can there be one here in the middle.

And yet divinely paradoxically....ONE IS HERE.

To know the how's or why's here is here right now ...would take two consciousnesses.

.

The intuitive's already know the answer to the one question of how and why. The answer is.. one knows simply because one doesn't know.

.

Steve, I don't think one can go any further than this....just as you cannot cross the horizon, nor can infinity ever complete.

.

Think about it..there is only ever one question to all our answers.

.

Atla
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Re: The Inter Mind

Post by Atla » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:31 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:46 pm
Here is the basic question that this thread asks ... Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens.
2) A Conscious experience of Red happens.

How does 1 produce 2? The old Dodge that the Red experience is just an Illusion doesn't work anymore. Even if you think it is an Illusion then what is the thing that experiences the Illusion?
Imo the trick is to realize that Western cultural mind-matter dualism is bullshit, we just see double. Materialism is bullshit. Idealism is bullshit. Matter and experience are one and the same thing.

It's not that experience is restricted to the human head; it's fundamental and one and the same thing as matter. This isn't panpsychism however, panpsychism still is a double vision projected into everything.

So 1 doesn't produce 2. 1 and 2 are one and the same thing said twice.

So there is no gap that needs closing, and no need for an Inter Mind. Red is fundamental, and in the language of science, some kind of material structure or wave or whatever will eventually be found, that corresponds to "red".

--------

Also, I read the last few comments of your Inter Mind topic on the skeptic forum. Apparently some skeptics think that everyone who doesn't think that experience is an illusion, is crazy.

They don't believe in red. This further confirms my suspicion that extreme skepticism is a mental disorder.

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