Where is the philosophy???

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Nick_A
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Nick_A »

Walker wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:48 am
Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:38 am... Progress has devolved philosophy into the love of argument. Who cares about wisdom or even knows what it is? The important thing is winning the argument to prove what in reality, you don't understand.
The philosophy of the past was the monograph, where one person presents a particular view. In presenting a view, the same person may present other views to contrast with that particular view, for a clearer explanation.

The monograph is often used in a dialogue situation. PN Forum is a dialogue situation, and ideally dialogue format can go one of two ways.

- One way is for a view to be presented by one person. Then, another person attempts to falsify that view.

- The other way is for a view to again be presented by one person. Then, another person presents a contrasting view. This is what a philosophical monograph format does in order to contrast views, but with one person presenting both views.

- A dialogue can use both methods, which can irk those who keep meticulously ordered sock drawers.
- Note that in a dialogue, the person who presents a view does not turn around and attempt to falsify that view.
-Another person attempts to falsify that view. Folks get confused about that, thinking that the presenter should falsify his own view, especially when a view is so well presented that the other person's only response is, "lot's of folks think lots of things." This could be due to science corrupting philosophy. :|


However Nick, when you mention argument, I think you mean something different.
When the intent is a mutual search inspired by the mutual love of wisdom then people can discuss. When the need isn't the love of wisdom but the need to be right, this quality of discussion devolves into egoistic argument. What other word would you prefer?
Walker
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Walker »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:36 pm
When the intent is a mutual search inspired by the mutual love of wisdom then people can discuss. When the need isn't the love of wisdom but the need to be right, this quality of discussion devolves into egoistic argument. What other word would you prefer?
Hey there Nick. Those two words get the job done, after my amplification of your observation that philosophy has turned into argument, an amplification made possible with mention of monograph and dialogue, that goes unnoticed btw.

However, I see no reason to accept your offering of a disagreement and argue over those two words.
(egotistic and argument) :|

You may be reaching a bit with that word "devolve", however, since many if not most exchanges seem destined to crash from the get-go, especially those that come out swinging with ad homs, in response to an observation.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Agent Smith »

Pattern-chaser ... bon voyage! A piece of advice, don't go north or south or east or west! Ok? I assume you replied "ok!" Good!
Walker
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Walker »

Agent Smith wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:45 am Pattern-chaser ... bon voyage! A piece of advice, don't go north or south or east or west! Ok? I assume you replied "ok!" Good!
1. Bon voyage ... the philosophy of the journey with no destination.

2. A philosophy that forbids cardinal routes leaves open the possibilities of every direction in-between, however it helps to know that if one makes the forbidding rule ironclad then the resulting ellipses, not to mention all the wandering in between, will eventually strand one at either the north pole where all routes are due south, or the south pole where all routes are due north. The first step determines where the stranding will eventually occur, although there's little difference between the two dimensionless points since both are too cold to really enjoy. The solution is to transcend that cardinal rule.

3. A philosophy of assumption ... what else is there? Degrees of probability that pertain to the assumptions, that's what. Without evidence to the contrary, "Good!" is a possibility better than bad.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Agent Smith »

Walker wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:24 am
Agent Smith wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 7:45 am Pattern-chaser ... bon voyage! A piece of advice, don't go north or south or east or west! Ok? I assume you replied "ok!" Good!
1. Bon voyage ... the philosophy of the journey with no destination.

2. A philosophy that forbids cardinal routes leaves open the possibilities of every direction in-between, however it helps to know that if one makes the forbidding rule ironclad then the resulting ellipses, not to mention all the wandering in between, will eventually strand one at either the north pole where all routes are due south, or the south pole where all routes are due north. The first step determines where the stranding will eventually occur, although there's little difference between the two dimensionless points since both are too cold to really enjoy. The solution is to transcend that cardinal rule.

3. A philosophy of assumption ... what else is there? Degrees of probability that pertain to the assumptions, that's what. Without evidence to the contrary, "Good!" is a possibility better than bad.
Si, si, you got it!

It's time to mutate! Can we though or are we mere pawns in the great game we call life? Some are higher up the scala naturae and that's both something exhilirating and also x.
popeye1945
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by popeye1945 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:49 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:48 pm ...
I see ego, anger, contempt and ill-will, personal insults, and so on.
...
More to the point, I see no philosophy.
...
I'm puzzled that the moderators here don't, er, moderate such behaviour.
Age wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:02 am LOL
LOL
LOL

Just because you made the CLAIM that you see 'such behavior', this does NOT mean 'such behavior' EXISTS. And, the FACT that you HAVE NOT and WILL NOT provide ANY supporting evidence for what you CLAIM to 'see', is just MORE supporting PROOF that what you 'see' does NOT even exist anyway.

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY most posters are STILL HERE in this forum is because this IS a relatively 'free of speech' website. Just about ANY thing can be said and written and it will NOT be moderated.
I came to this forum hoping to find philosophical discussion. Having read Philosophy Now since its inception, I am disappointed in the almost-complete lack of philosophy, and discussion. Instead, there is conflict, abuse, argument by assertion, and other childishness. I've wasted my (very short) time here; I'm off to find some grown-ups to talk to about philosophy.

Fare well.
Fare well, It has gotten to be a rather nasty place! Check back, they just might be willing to do something about it.
Age
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Age »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:24 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:49 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:48 pm ...
I see ego, anger, contempt and ill-will, personal insults, and so on.
...
More to the point, I see no philosophy.
...
I'm puzzled that the moderators here don't, er, moderate such behaviour.
Age wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:02 am LOL
LOL
LOL

Just because you made the CLAIM that you see 'such behavior', this does NOT mean 'such behavior' EXISTS. And, the FACT that you HAVE NOT and WILL NOT provide ANY supporting evidence for what you CLAIM to 'see', is just MORE supporting PROOF that what you 'see' does NOT even exist anyway.

Oh, and by the way, the reason WHY most posters are STILL HERE in this forum is because this IS a relatively 'free of speech' website. Just about ANY thing can be said and written and it will NOT be moderated.
I came to this forum hoping to find philosophical discussion. Having read Philosophy Now since its inception, I am disappointed in the almost-complete lack of philosophy, and discussion. Instead, there is conflict, abuse, argument by assertion, and other childishness. I've wasted my (very short) time here; I'm off to find some grown-ups to talk to about philosophy.

Fare well.
Fare well, It has gotten to be a rather nasty place! Check back, they just might be willing to do something about it.
I am surprised at just how MANY ALLEGATIONS/CLAIMS are made but NO actual PROOF is PROVIDED to the ALLEGATION/CLAIM, let alone ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE or even just ANY SORT AT ALL to BACK UP and SUPPORT being PROVIDED.

As can be CLEARLY SEEN ABOVE, some people would PREFER to RUN AWAY and HIDE instead of backing up and supporting their ALLEGATIONS and CLAIMS.

Instead of just ALLEGING and CLAIMING that 'this place' has GOTTEN a 'rather nasty place', (whatever that means), how about 'you' provide some EVIDENCE of WHY 'you' say and claim such a thing. And then 'we' MIGHT be ABLE TO SORT OUT what 'it' is, which is CAUSING some people here so MUCH OBVIOUS STRESS and/or so MUCH HARDSHIP here, WITHOUT involving so-called "moderators". Or, do some of 'you' feel the NEED to get "moderators" for 'you' to WORK 'things' OUT, for 'you'?

What I WROTE and SAID above was USED to 'try to' "justify" the RUNNING AWAY from this forum of 'one individual'.

Now, if absolutely ANY one would like to EXPRESSLY POINT OUT and SHOW WHERE, EXACTLY, ANY so-called 'almost-complete lack of philosophy, and discussion', 'conflict', 'abuse', 'argument by assertion', and/or 'other childishness' in what I wrote in the quoted part here, then PLEASE provide 'it' now.

And then if there is ANY of these 'things' in ANYWHERE I have written in this forum, THEN we can move ONTO 'them'.
Skepdick
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Skepdick »

Pattern-chaser wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:49 pm I came to this forum hoping to find philosophical discussion. Having read Philosophy Now since its inception, I am disappointed in the almost-complete lack of philosophy, and discussion. Instead, there is conflict, abuse, argument by assertion, and other childishness. I've wasted my (very short) time here; I'm off to find some grown-ups to talk to about philosophy.

Fare well.
That's one way to throw a childish tantrum over philosophical disagreement...

Stop lying to yourself. You aren't looking for "grown ups to discuss philosophy with" - you are looking for somebody to validate your philosophical opinions.

There's nothing to be learned from people who already agree with you.
Walker
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Walker »

Pattern-chaser wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:49 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:48 pm ...
I see ego, anger, contempt and ill-will, personal insults, and so on.
...
More to the point, I see no philosophy.
...
I'm puzzled that the moderators here don't, er, moderate such behaviour.
"That's one way to throw a childish tantrum over philosophical disagreement..."

Obviously, the evidence shows that Pattern-chaser did not depart over "philosophical disagreements."

Trying to change his reason for leaving is an example of bending the facts to fit the narrative projected upon another, and that happens a lot here.

His complaint is about the perpetual focus on the person, and not the principle.

By projecting that narrative upon him, the philosophy crumbles down to ... Yes you did, and, no I didn't.

Oy. So tedious.
Last edited by Walker on Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Walker
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Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by Walker »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:24 am
Fare well, It has gotten to be a rather nasty place! Check back, they just might be willing to do something about it.
This is bound to happen when the focus is to inspect individuals rather than principles.
popeye1945
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Where is the philosophy???

Post by popeye1945 »

Walker wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:15 pm
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:24 am
Fare well, It has gotten to be a rather nasty place! Check back, they just might be willing to do something about it.
This is bound to happen when the focus is to inspect individuals rather than principles.
Ad- hominem has no place in civil discourse, some people here seem to think it a virtue. Being anonymous seems to bring out the worst in some people.
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