Philosophy Now Forum

This "fallacy of fallacies" post seemingly invalidates itself, by using logic to denounce logic. It cuts off (invalidates) the very legs of it's own reasoning.

TimeSeeker wrote:I think this answers the OP? The answer is 'no, but you can trust empiricism'.

If perceptions are not trustworthy, then neither are the 'experiences' that one 'perceives'.

TimeSeeker wrote:t's just a collective noun! Would you disagree if I chose to call it a feeling instead of experience? Because if you are this uptight about labels, then I will insist on calling them feelings and not experiences. Look! No difference

LOL. I guess that's fair game.

If you wish to call "mental phenomena", an "experience", then I won't disagree. Anything we experience, is an experience. If we experience mental phenomena, then it is an experience. If we experience aches and pains, then it is an experience If we experience love, hate, anger, th...

RG1 wrote:So you do agree that both of these are experiences, ...yes?

TimeSeeker wrote:They can't BOTH be experiences. They are different.

So then one of these is NOT an experience? ...yes/no?

TimeSeeker wrote:No! I am trying to make an argument that PERCEPTION and EXPERIENCE are DIFFERENT mental phenomena.

So you do agree that both of these are experiences, ...yes?

And at this point your PERCEPTION will say 'YES', but your EXPERIENCE will say I DON’T KNOW'. And then you can go run the experiment and figure out if your perception and experience AGREE: Is M the same as M? Yes, but Perception and Experience, in this context are still both 'experiences'. Here you...

TimeSeeker wrote:Cool. In what way are they different? Is their 'individuality' the only difference you experience/perceive? e.g their different position in spacetime ?

Yes.

TimeSeeker wrote:If you were to IGNORE their individuality in respect to spacetime would you say that: B is the same as В ?

I would say "Yes".

TimeSeeker wrote:According to your perception/experience: Is B the same as В?

If you really want a "yes" or "no", then I would lean towards "no". Although they look the same, I think technically they are different entities, therefore I would say NO.

Atla wrote:Your "point" would only apply if we could discard time, and get stuck in a dream state, never realizing it's a dream.

So how would you know that you are NOT stuck in a dream, ...or NOT hallucinating, ...or are NOT delusional, ...or NOT a brain-in-a-vat, etc, etc ???

RG1 wrote: ↑ Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:35 am Perceiving experiences Perceiving perceptions Experiencing experiences Experiencing perceptions ...all have equivalent meanings How do you reconcile this statement ^^^^^ RG1 wrote: ↑ Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:35 am I don't know. They could be the same, they could be d...

You are the one missing the whole point. Yes this is how it all works, when everything adds up we assume it's all real, a highly accurate representation of real stuff. On what basis do you "add up" and "assume" realness? Do you have something that is 'real' that you can use as a...

What is the difference between a “certain” and an “uncertain” experience ? What is the difference between a “real” and “unreal” experience ? What is the difference between a “deniable” and an “undeniable” experience ? What is the difference between a “doubtable” and an “undoubtable” experience ? Th...

And yet these are your words: Any attempt to deny the reality of 'experiencing', only affirms it. If we deny 'experiencing exists', then we must also deny the experiencing of denying. If our perception is not trustworthy then it is possible for your experiences to be fake e.g not real. TimeSeeker, ...

Because if you can’t tell the difference between two simple letters then how do you know your perception of your experiences are real? They couldn’t be fake. TimeSeeker, I think you mis-read me. I am in total agreement with your conclusion. You are preaching to the choir. Our perceptions are not tr...