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by Ginkgo
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:22 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Aristotle's unmoved mover is sentient because it has an intellect. I can't think of any non-sentient candidates. Where that leaves us, then, is here: we know there has to have been a First Cause, one that is eternal, uncaused, and now sentient as well. That leaves us uncertain as to the exact natur...
by Ginkgo
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:29 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Sorry, double post.
by Ginkgo
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:48 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Well, Aristotle's unmoved mover springs to mind. Okay, we could go with something like that. I guess what we need to ask about that is whether there are any candidates for non -sentient First Causes. Are you satisfied that there are none? Aristotle's unmoved mover is sentient because it has an inte...
by Ginkgo
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:16 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

OK, let us assume that we can trace causes and their effects back to a first cause. What comes next? Well, the point is that we don't have to be able to "trace" anything...all we have to know is that mathematically, an infinite regression of causes is impossible, and we're involved in a line of cau...
by Ginkgo
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:36 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

BTW Can you please stop quote mining it's getting very tiresome? I can. But if I do, our messages get progressively longer, and longer and longer...and that's even more tiresome. I would prefer that we really on the little arrow in blue beside our names, which instantly takes us back to the totalit...
by Ginkgo
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:50 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

I note this. But a "cause" automatically implies an "effect," and the reverse is true as well; and "effect" implies there was a "cause." "Contradiction" is not the right word for the problem: "entailment" is. The one is entailed by the other. I think we are talking about two different things. Now, ...
by Ginkgo
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:19 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

...what I am saying is that cause and effect in the physical world is a fact. Oh. Okay. Well, then how do you then say... ...there are effects without causes. Okay, then...now you say there are such things as effects that have no causes. That seems to contradict your claim that cause-and-effect is ...
by Ginkgo
Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:31 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

At this juncture we are up to casual chains. I'm fine with going back to that. I believe I asked you if you thought causality was a delusion, and you said it was, because of quantum physics. But if causality is a delusion, then you surely don't believe in science; for science rests on inductive det...
by Ginkgo
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:14 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Belinda wrote: At this juncture we revert to "is God necessary for morality?" I claim not so because morality is intersubjective and not an objective, natural and absolute law.
Please don't start Immanuel Can off on this again, I couldn't stand it. At this juncture we are up to casual chains.
by Ginkgo
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:40 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

As stated previously I have two main problem with causal chains. Firstly, If we try to trace the process of cause and effect to find a first cause we find that it disappears into the myriad of causes and effects of unlimited interaction. If I trace that sentence, I find it disappears into a puddle ...
by Ginkgo
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:09 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

To say that something, especially something as odd as quantum physics, exists without causality is thus a non-sequitur. It's only possible to say that at this point we don't happen to know what causes the effects we observe, if anything does. It does not justify us asserting that the quantum level ...
by Ginkgo
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:04 pm
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

For Immanuel Can. As stated previously I have two main problem with causal chains. Firstly, If we try to trace the process of cause and effect to find a first cause we find that it disappears into the myriad of causes and effects of unlimited interaction. Your idea of causal chains is too simplistic...
by Ginkgo
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:19 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

So you do not believe that cause-and-effect are real? Yes. I introduced my quantum concept a bit too early. I will return to that later. So, please go on with your argument. This is actually an important point. We must make it clear. Do you believe things can begin without causes? Are there things ...
by Ginkgo
Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:18 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Immanuel Can wrote:
So you do not believe that cause-and-effect are real?
Yes. I introduced my quantum concept a bit too early. I will return to that later. So, please go on with your argument.
by Ginkgo
Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:16 am
Forum: Introduce Yourself
Topic: Is God necessary for morality?
Replies: 427
Views: 18541

Re: Is God necessary for morality?

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:13 am
Ginkgo wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:21 am I have a problem with causal chains.
Okay, then we have to pause there, because that's a premise to the mathematical argument.

Is it your supposition that things can happen for which there are no causes?
In the physical world, no. In the quantum world, yes.