Search found 375 matches

by Peter Holmes
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:44 am
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: Re:

Features of reality aren't relative to anything. They just are. What we say about them is relative to perspective, etc. You're muddling map and terrain. That's your religion and you are still holding onto it. This is silly. The methodological naturalism that (informally) informs the natural science...
by Peter Holmes
Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:02 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: Re:

Logik, I'm trying to clarify and generalise the structure of your argument, and I don't think I've got it yet. Is it something like the following? 1 What we call factual assertions (about features of reality) are both true and false, depending on perspective, context and conventions. 2 What we've c...
by Peter Holmes
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:06 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: Re:

I hate to admit it, but: Logik is right. I wish I was right. Merely more precise. The way to prove me wrong (in turn) is to simply zoom out of the Solar system and include Alpha Centaury in your perspective. The further you zoom out of the Solar system and observe other stars/planets the less you c...
by Peter Holmes
Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:39 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

The 'way things are' is always from a perspective, and describing them using signs is always contextual and conventional. I thought we'd agreed all that. So there are as many "ways things are" as there are observer perspectives from which things can be described? In which case - I agree. That has b...
by Peter Holmes
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:28 am
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

1 As I think I've said several times, I reject correspondence theories of truth - at least, the ones I've come across so far. The claim that the factual assertion 'snow is white' is true because real snow really is white, obviously confuses what we say with the way things are - as though features o...
by Peter Holmes
Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:45 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

I disagree. That anyone says 'this is morally good / bad' doesn't and can't make it objectively (factually) morally good / bad. The commands or nature of a god, or the teachings of a religion, can't make a moral assertion 'true', any more than they could make a factual assertion true. And the suppo...
by Peter Holmes
Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:04 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

What could make morality objective? The Holy Christian Church (any one of them), or the Muslim Religion. They both claim man has been existing since creation, and will survive beyond the end days of the world. THAT is something that guarantees that there is a chance that humanity's moral code could...
by Peter Holmes
Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:20 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

I don't agree. Are you aware of the use-mention distinction? Talking about a reference frame means that we both recognize the concept of a "reference frame" it does not mean we have agreed on one. Until we both agree on said frame of reference from which we are to evaluate our "factual claims" we a...
by Peter Holmes
Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:55 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

The criterion for correctness - and therefore what constitutes the factual - is always within a frame of reference, so there's no correct frame of reference. I thought we'd agreed on that. But notice that what we say about frames of reference is factual - true or false - so this is the nature of ou...
by Peter Holmes
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:28 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

And if you reject the fact-value distinction, you can't then talk about the objectivity (factual nature) of any assertion, let alone moral ones - unless you clarify the non-standard way you're using the words 'truth', 'fact' and 'objectivity'. I assume you agree. I can't talk about your conception ...
by Peter Holmes
Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:06 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

An interesting but strange counter-claim - expressed in different ways here - is that what we call facts are themselves value-judgements, so that there's no justification for distinguishing between factual and non-factual assertions, because they all express value-judgements. Do I need to point out...
by Peter Holmes
Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:50 am
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

A_Seagull wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:48 am
Peter Holmes wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:56 pm
, if facts are value-judgements, then value-judgements are facts,
Not quite.

If A is a subset of B, it does not follow that B is a subset of A. (nor That A=B
You quote me out of context. I was pointing out the strangeness of this claim.
by Peter Holmes
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:14 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

No, I've explained your misconception here, and there's little point going over it again. Let's leave it, shall we? The point in going over it is so that we can correct the error in your reasoning which I am busy pointing out. No, all you're doing is repeating your mistake. The notion of "true irre...
by Peter Holmes
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:50 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

As I've explained, a factual assertion can only be inside a frame of reference. That, from another perspective, it can be false, is trivially true and inconsequential. It is not inconsequential. You gave me "The Earth orbits the Sun" as a fact. I gave you a trivial example of reference from which i...
by Peter Holmes
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:02 pm
Forum: Ethical Theory
Topic: What could make morality objective?
Replies: 1634
Views: 37832

Re: What could make morality objective?

My argument all along has been that morality isn't objective, because a moral assertion, such as 'slavery is wrong', expresses a value-judgement rather than a factual claim about a feature of reality. The claim "The Earth orbits around the Sun" is a value-judgment too. You have arbitrarily decided ...