Panpsychism

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Empedocles
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:02 pm
Location: Austin TX USA
Contact:

Re: Panpsychism

Post by Empedocles »

lancek4 wrote:So what happens when your idea can be explained by a more comprehensive and simple explanation?
Then I would adopt the simpler and more comprehensive explanation.

Panpsychism says there is fundamentally only one kind of stuff in the world and it has both a material and an experiential aspect. That is simpler and more comprehensive than saying that there are two kinds of stuff (body and mind) or that some things have an experiential aspect and some don't.
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by chaz wyman »

Empedocles wrote:
lancek4 wrote:So what happens when your idea can be explained by a more comprehensive and simple explanation?
Then I would adopt the simpler and more comprehensive explanation.

Panpsychism says there is fundamentally only one kind of stuff in the world and it has both a material and an experiential aspect. That is simpler and more comprehensive than saying that there are two kinds of stuff (body and mind) or that some things have an experiential aspect and some don't.
There is an easier one if you want to take that line. God did it all.

Which , of course explains nothing, like Panpsychism.
User avatar
Empedocles
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:02 pm
Location: Austin TX USA
Contact:

Re: Panpsychism

Post by Empedocles »

Chaz, I'm curious. How do you explain the relationship between mind and body, or experience and matter?
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by chaz wyman »

Empedocles wrote:Chaz, I'm curious. How do you explain the relationship between mind and body, or experience and matter?
The mind is what the brain does.
There is no particular distinction between the mind and body. Are you a Cartesian?
Experience is the 'software' organisation of brain matter.

We do not see this in rocks.

I'm really puzzled why you think your bizarre monism can begin to contribute anything to these discussions.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

Chaz: The POINT being that if a ROCK cannot experience then how much LESS can a 'fiction' experience, responding to Empedocles' objection.

MGL: The modern panpsychist hypothesis is meant to explain consciousness within the context of modern scientific knowledge. The fact that much of this knowledge is "fiction" cannot be an argument solely against pansychism as it is within this "fiction" that pansychism seeks consistency. If you want to object to panpsychism on these grounds then you must object to the fiction of scientific knowledge as a whole as well.

Chaz: That is the most nicely put non-sequitur I have read this week; not the only non sequitur but the one most likely to bamboozle someone who is not thinking.
Panpsychism has nothing to offer science, any more that a rock does

MGL:

If what I said does not relate to what you said it is possible I misunderstood so perhaps you could explain your point more clearly.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

MGL: Surely, if everying is reducable to "fictitious" particles of matter and energy, including the process of perception, then such fictions have to be part of experience.

Chaz: No. The point is that they are only available to us qua fictions or models if you prefer. they help us understand the events around us- until the model breaks down.
Simply you are failing to understand the relationship between language and reality.
We can experience the WORD 'atom" but never an atom.
Do I really need to have to say this to you?


MGL:

I am quite happy to agree that atoms etc are fictions or models and are used to help us understand events around us until the model breaks down. In this context the panpsychist contention that these fictions - as well as having fictitious properties of mass, spin, charge etc also have a fictitious phenomenal properties. Just as mass helps us explain why things are heavy, the phenomenal property explains why something experiences redness.

There is no claim that there is an experience of atoms. The claim is that experience must be a physical process and - if we want to explain conscious experience in physical terms - like any other physical process it is reducable to the interaction of the ultimate components of matter and energy.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

MGL: So in other words phenomenal experience just magically pops into existence when neurons are firing in a brain.

Chaz: No. Neurones firing in the brain is the model (the fiction) we apply to help materialise our conception of phenomenal experience.
The joy with this sort of model is that it can be demonstrated - unlike Panpsychism (whatever that is)


MGL:

all that is being demonstrated is CORRELATION between phenomenal experience and neuron firing. What is missing is the EXPLANATIOn of how one causes\produces the other.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

Empedocles : Metaphysics goes beyond scientific theories in formulating conceptual systems that have enough internal coherence to encompass ideas about things that science does not address.


Chaz: And it is thus we move from fiction to fantasy.
The idea that meta is indeed beyond, is a unverifiable claim, and rather contentious in our post religious world rejected by most modern philosophers.
In a very important sense there may be no place for any such claim beyond the imagination, and imagination may be no more than that which metaphysics is.
Worst still, this claim is that upon which your other claim about Panpsychism relies.
I think we have a circular argument here.


MGL:

the mind-body problem is a metaphysical problem. You are very welcome to dismiss such problems as pointless fantasis, but then you cannot then assert with any seriousness that neuron firings produce consciousness as that is just as metaphysical a claim as panpsychism.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

Chaz: The mind is what the brain does.
There is no particular distinction between the mind and body. Are you a Cartesian?
Experience is the 'software' organisation of brain matter.

We do not see this in rocks.

I'm really puzzled why you think your bizarre monism can begin to contribute anything to these discussions.


MGL:

Yes, the mind is what the brain does, but how does the brain produce the sensation of redness that is part of a mind's experience?
yes, there is no particular distinction between the mind and body.The whole point of panpsychism is to defend the identity of mind and body by equating phenomenal properties of experience ( eg redness ) with physical properties of reality.
Experience can certainly be correlated with the software organisation of brain matter but how does it produce the sensation of redness from modules or functions that have no sensations of redness in their own algorithms?
Yes, we do not see mental behaviour in rocks, because rocks are insufficiently complex.
What is the problem you think panpsychism is failing to contribute an answer to?
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by chaz wyman »

MGL wrote:Chaz: The mind is what the brain does.
There is no particular distinction between the mind and body. Are you a Cartesian?
Experience is the 'software' organisation of brain matter.

We do not see this in rocks.

I'm really puzzled why you think your bizarre monism can begin to contribute anything to these discussions.


MGL:

Yes, the mind is what the brain does, but how does the brain produce the sensation of redness that is part of a mind's experience?

Obviously that is the subject of much patient study, not helped by a grand meta-narritive with no empirical basis:" Panpsychism.
However much you think this helps - basically it adds nothing to the discussion. The answer is complex and not simple as you would have it.

yes, there is no particular distinction between the mind and body.The whole point of panpsychism is to defend the identity of mind and body by equating phenomenal properties of experience ( eg redness ) with physical properties of reality.

No, the point of Panpsychism is to wipe out important distinctions between special cases of organised matter, such as the brain, and pieces of dog-poo and rocks. It has nothing to bring to the table.

Experience can certainly be correlated with the software organisation of brain matter but how does it produce the sensation of redness from modules or functions that have no sensations of redness in their own algorithms?

Ask a Neurologist, not a mystic. Panpsychism is mysticism.

Yes, we do not see mental behaviour in rocks, because rocks are insufficiently complex.
What is the problem you think panpsychism is failing to contribute an answer to?

Perhaps when you actually contribute something then I will tell you
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by chaz wyman »

MGL wrote:Empedocles : Metaphysics goes beyond scientific theories in formulating conceptual systems that have enough internal coherence to encompass ideas about things that science does not address.


Chaz: And it is thus we move from fiction to fantasy.
The idea that meta is indeed beyond, is a unverifiable claim, and rather contentious in our post religious world rejected by most modern philosophers.
In a very important sense there may be no place for any such claim beyond the imagination, and imagination may be no more than that which metaphysics is.
Worst still, this claim is that upon which your other claim about Panpsychism relies.
I think we have a circular argument here.


MGL:

the mind-body problem is a metaphysical problem. You are very welcome to dismiss such problems as pointless fantasis, but then you cannot then assert with any seriousness that neuron firings produce consciousness as that is just as metaphysical a claim as panpsychism.

There is no mind-body problem. The mind is what the brain does, the brain is part of the body. This is only problematic if you adopt a Christianising Cartesianism., based on the need to preserve the independence of the SOUL.
chaz wyman
Posts: 5304
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by chaz wyman »

MGL wrote:MGL: So in other words phenomenal experience just magically pops into existence when neurons are firing in a brain.

Chaz: No. Neurones firing in the brain is the model (the fiction) we apply to help materialise our conception of phenomenal experience.
The joy with this sort of model is that it can be demonstrated - unlike Panpsychism (whatever that is)


MGL:

all that is being demonstrated is CORRELATION between phenomenal experience and neuron firing. What is missing is the EXPLANATIOn of how one causes\produces the other.
I had not taken you to be a Nihilist.
If it is ONLY correlation, as it might be, then you can apply that skepticism to ALL categories of Causality; then you have nothing to say at all.
This is a perennial objection to induction which is very childish of you to assert. If you really want to do that then you are going to shoot yourself in the foot in many forthcoming discussions because you can use the same argument with the Dawn and setting of the Sun and the movement of the Earth.
User avatar
Wyatt Debble
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:18 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by Wyatt Debble »

Empedocles wrote:We would not experience anything if experience were not present in the universe.

To take a look at Leibniz's early form of panpsychism... He seemed to hold that any entity, as it existed independent of outer relations or representation in something else, required its own qualitative occurrences just to have be-ing at all, to have a manner of existing in itself [quote #1 below]. He dismissed a supposed absence of such in most entities (simple monads) as due to their lacking the logical form to properly discern their internal, pre-Established exhibitions of the world (he distinguished between unconscious and conscious perceptions or information, apparently).

Kant, of course, rejected Leibniz's conclusion [quote #2 below] that there were no alternatives as to how things existed in themselves but a phenomenal way, taking an agnostic stance that the intrinsic condition of non-humans (or least non- brained organisms) was unknowable. Perhaps Kant's restriction or influence has lingered on from his critical idealism to today's fixation with materialism / physicalism - although as Strawson has contended, the key source was before Kant:

"Once upon a time, not so long ago, no one thought that there was a mind-body problem. No one thought consciousness was a special mystery and they were right. The sense of difficulty arose only about 400 years ago and for a very specific reason: people began to think they knew what matter was. They thought (very briefly) that matter consisted entirely of grainy particles with various shapes bumping into one another. This was classical contact mechanics, '[the corpuscularian philosophy', and it gave rise to a conundrum. If this is all that matter is, how can it be the basis of or give rise to mind or consciousness?" (from a review of Nicholas Humphrey's book, "Soul Dust")

#1 Gottfried Leibniz ... Still monads need to have some qualities, otherwise they would not even be existences. [...] We experience in ourselves a state where we remember nothing and where we have no distinct perception, as in periods of fainting, or when we are overcome by a profound, dreamless sleep. In such a state [...we do...] not sensibly differ at all from a simple monad. [...] Nevertheless it does not follow at all that the simple substance is in such a state without perception. This is so because of the reasons given [...] nor on the other hand would it exist without some affection and the affection is nothing else than its perception. When, however, there are a great number of weak perceptions where nothing stands out distinctively, we are stunned; as when one turns around and around in the same direction, a dizziness comes on, which makes him swoon and makes him able to distinguish nothing. Among animals, death can occasion this state for quite a period.

[...] The passing condition which involves and represents a multiplicity in the unity, or in the simple substance, is nothing else than what is called perception. This should be carefully distinguished from apperception or consciousness, as will appear in what follows. In this matter the Cartesians have fallen into a serious error, in that they deny the existence of those perceptions of which we are not conscious. It is this also which has led them to believe that spirits alone are monads and that there are no souls of animals or other entelechies, and it has led them to make the common confusion between a protracted period of unconsciousness and actual death. They have thus adopted the Scholastic error that souls can exist entirely separated from bodies...
(Which is curious, since Leibniz's "material bodies" would only be presented as such in perceptions; pre-Established Harmony eliminated the need for windowless monads to literally be organized into spatial systems outside themselves.)

#2 Immanuel Kant ... Leibniz took the appearances for things-in-themselves [...] The philosophy of Leibniz and Wolff [...] has given a completely wrong direction to all investigations into the nature and origin of our knowledge. [...] It does not merely concern their [logical] form, as being either clear or confused. It concerns their origin and content. It is not that by our sensibility we cannot know the nature of things in themselves in any save a confused fashion; we do not apprehend them in any fashion whatsoever. If our subjective constitution be removed, the represented object, with the qualities which sensible intuition bestows upon it, is nowhere to be found, and cannot possibly be found. For it is this subjective constitution which determines its form as appearance.

[...] the celebrated Leibniz [...] believed that he could obtain knowledge of the inner nature of things by comparing all objects merely with the understanding and with the separated, formal concepts of its thought. [...] He compared all things with each other by means of concepts alone, and naturally found no other differences save those through which the understanding distinguishes its pure concepts from one another. The conditions of sensible intuition, which carry with them their own differences, he did not regard as original, sensibility being for him only a confused mode of representation, and not a separate source of representations.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

MGL: yes, there is no particular distinction between the mind and body.The whole point of panpsychism is to defend the identity of mind and body by equating phenomenal properties of experience ( eg redness ) with physical properties of reality.

Chaz: No, the point of Panpsychism is to wipe out important distinctions between special cases of organised matter, such as the brain, and pieces of dog-poo and rocks. It has nothing to bring to the table.

MGL:

I have noticed that you do this a lot. You don't just disagree with what is claimed, you also deny that it is being claimed and claim something else is bing claimed instead, something that is easier for you to dismiss. Panpsychism very clearly claims that the distinstions between brains and dog-poo are important to explain complex mental behaviour and the associated complex experiences a brain will have. What it questions is wether the particular organisation of the brain explains raw phenomenal consciuousness, something no neuroscientist has yet been able to demonstrate.
MGL
Posts: 235
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Panpsychism

Post by MGL »

Chaz: There is no mind-body problem. The mind is what the brain does, the brain is part of the body. This is only problematic if you adopt a Christianising Cartesianism., based on the need to preserve the independence of the SOUL.


MGL:

If there is no mind-body problem then please explain HOW neuron firings can produce phenomenal consciousness? Just asserting that they do does not demonstrate there is no problem, it just demonstrates the problem is being ignored.
Post Reply