Can Capitalism and Communism be combined?

[dawnmathieson]

Good evening PN how are you all? I am currently interested in theories that combine aspects and ideals from both the 'far left' (liberalism, communism, marxism, socialism etc) with the 'far right' (conservativism, capitalism etc). I am interested to know what aspects you think work from each one. Any examples of both extremes working in unison will also be helpful. For example, some modern day hunter gatherer tribes also have part time jobs. The tribe forages and hunts for the tribe as a whole (communism) but they also have part time jobs in the free market which brings individual earnings (capitalism). Im very interested in whether these ideals could be applied in western civilisation, or is there something inherent in modern society that prevents this beyond mere socialisation. I think it could be possible to have a communist attitude towards 'basic needs' (defining basic is difficult) and a capitalist attitude towards 'luxury items'. I wont pretend that it would be easy but i think if the balance was right it could be possible to combine both extremes into something far better than either on their own. Thankyou for your time x

*edit attempt to get back on topic*
What I am interested in is methods of taxation. In a capitalist society taxation happens through money. Citizens pay a proportion of their wages in order for society to sustain. In a communist society taxation happens through labour. Citizens work in order for society to sustain. I am trying to imagine a society governed by both of these principles. If all citizens worked 2 or 3 days a week in a communal role in order to meet basic needs this would be taxation through labour. If done properly all basic needs would then be free including basic food, education, health, housing, electricity, telecommunications, sanitation (Basic needs are hard to classify). Then citizens would have the remaining days to operate in free market capitalism in the production of luxury products for profit. All free market capitalism in this society would have little tax, only taxation to make up the shortfall in highly qualified but essential jobs such as doctors and lawyers. This would be a society that used both the extremes of communism and capitalism as all basic needs would be met while free market trading would have low tax. I would like to explore this fictional set up used in a modern setting. At first I am exploring any fundamental problems that would arise , amending, and then I will explore more complex issues like foreign trading

[Bill Wiltrack]

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China comes to mind...




http://www.laborrightsnow.org/chinaprisoners.html


http://www.globallabourrights.org/reports?id=0034


http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/ama ... -in-china/




it's a beautiful marriage.


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[dawnmathieson]

Are you objecting to the principle and if so on what grounds? If you are posting links please explain why and do not think that one poorly executed example of a principle falsifies the principle itself x

[converge]

I would say nearly all nations already are a mix of left and right. There are no true pure capitalist or pure communist nations. Each has some element of state control and some element of private control. Most of the nations of the western world are considered to have a "mixed economy" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Let's just say the honeymoon between Communism & capitalism in China is only getting better.


Plenty of wedding pics but all are NSFW.


...especially if you are a human.



Party on!
















Hey! What happens in China stays in China...know what I mean?







Besides, they're kids for Christ sake!






Honestly, know to mankind how the marriage between the most repressive governmental system on the face of the earth-Communism and the most oppressive economic system known to man-capitalism could possibly go wrong? Just don't see it. Shakes head.









Yeah, I think things are going to work out just fine...nothing to worry about here.










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[chaz wyman]

I would say nearly all nations already are a mix of left and right. There are no true pure capitalist or pure communist nations. Each has some element of state control and some element of private control. Most of the nations of the western world are considered to have a "mixed economy" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

Actually the connection between capitalism and communism is closer than most people think.
Marx was one of history's greatest economists. His theory is a theory of capitalism. His Manifesto is a way by which capitalist forces are mobilised to attempt to solve problems of poverty and exploitation by putting capital (and capital is power) into the hands of those that created the wealth through their labour.
This motivation has been resisted by the powerful in both 'capitalist' AND so-called 'communist' countries. For the West it has been business as usual, but they have pandered to the left by exploiting foreign lands and making concessions to liberal values. In so-called communist countries, capitalism has been practiced by the institution of "state-capitalism' where the state holds all the power and has capitalised the entire economy. That was never Marx's vision.

[dawnmathieson]

Oh yes put up pictures instead of an argument. China is a very complicated problem and doesnt come down to simply China = bad. Im not saying China are good either but the issues are very complicated. China has had so many food shortages and civil wars over its life span that its amazing it is still going. Chinas government basically does all it can to keep people employed (at a low wage yes) to avoid this. China has to keep the value of the Yuan very low in order to do this as its low value means a lot of trade. A lot of trade means a lot of employment. A lot of employment and a lack of free speech is essential to keeping a country as large and poor as china out of civil war and collective farming is one of the only ways to minimise food shortages. Why do you think EVERYTHING says made in China on the bottom while at the same time people in China are so poor? China buys up other countries debt in order to keep its own currency low in relation to other currencies. If China became as rich as it should be noone would be able to afford to trade with them and Chinas unemployment rate would be through the roof and civil war would erupt killing millions of people. Again, I dont agree with a lot of the things that happen in China but the issues much more complicated than most people realise. Western media demonises china and never explains things properly because they hate admitting how much they owe china and how responsible for the state of china we really are. No one wants to admit that we require China to remain poor so that theyll lend us money and make shit that we dont need. And shit we do need. In fact everyones shit. Perhaps you need to learn more about China and economics x

[dawnmathieson]

I would say nearly all nations already are a mix of left and right. There are no true pure capitalist or pure communist nations. Each has some element of state control and some element of private control. Most of the nations of the western world are considered to have a "mixed economy" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

Actually the connection between capitalism and communism is closer than most people think.
Marx was one of history's greatest economists. His theory is a theory of capitalism. His Manifesto is a way by which capitalist forces are mobilised to attempt to solve problems of poverty and exploitation by putting capital (and capital is power) into the hands of those that created the wealth through their labour.
This motivation has been resisted by the powerful in both 'capitalist' AND so-called 'communist' countries. For the West it has been business as usual, but they have pandered to the left by exploiting foreign lands and making concessions to liberal values. In so-called communist countries, capitalism has been practiced by the institution of "state-capitalism' where the state holds all the power and has capitalised the entire economy. That was never Marx's vision.

Yes I completely agree. Im talking about the extremes of using communism to meet basic needs and capitalism to reach luxury needs. I want to write an article that makes an attempt at working this ideal and was wondering if anyone had any examples like the modern hunter gatherer tribe i mentioned. there are many examples of this for example the british NHS which provides health care (a basic need). However, i have not seen many examples of this in the extreme. For example, food or housing being free in a similar way to the NHS making health care free as food and housing are also basic needs. I have never seen this on a large scale in any modern society and im currently exploring how these ideals could possibly work. Or do the two ideals clash as people wont be driven to free market capitalism if there basic needs are met? x

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Dawn, your fourth sentence: Any examples of both extremes working in unison will also be helpful.


and I think what your are contemplating is already working fabulously, in China, in America, and many other Western civilizations.

For the poor, they will live under the tenants of Communism. For the rich, they will enjoy everything that is taken from the poor. And the rich will enjoy it in any system they choose.

In summary; You and me will continue to be indoctrinated into the Communist ideology of less is more and the richest 1% can enjoy a larger portion of the fruits of our labor. Enjoy.



I'm not sure you will need a special study as you mention in your original post. You are the study.



Get in line & lap it up!




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Poverty in the US almost as bad as in North Korea

While there are five million in North Korea that face food shortages, the same number in the US is 45 million.

...................................................
The rise in the number of homeless and hungry Americans have reached epidemic proportions.


one tiny note; your signature, Shit could be worse. Well, not really. If shit could be worse believe me it would be. And even if you don't agree with me that seems like a strange slogan to hang your hat on. How does, Shit will get worse sound to ya?




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[chaz wyman]

Bill you have to explain the origin of this image please.

[chaz wyman]

On the question of hunter/gatherers. The best example I know of a beautifully co-operative society is the San of the Kalahari.
In the 1970s Lee & Devore studied their lives and practices. The book I studied is..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kalahari-Hunter ... 16&sr=1-32

The other thing you should look at is the Symposium Man the Hunter I think that was 1970 or 1968.

Also Colin Turnbull's work on the Pygmys; The Forest People.

Then for feminist balance Woman the Gatherer

Many of these societies have dwindled to practically nothing.

I would say nearly all nations already are a mix of left and right. There are no true pure capitalist or pure communist nations. Each has some element of state control and some element of private control. Most of the nations of the western world are considered to have a "mixed economy" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economy

Actually the connection between capitalism and communism is closer than most people think.
Marx was one of history's greatest economists. His theory is a theory of capitalism. His Manifesto is a way by which capitalist forces are mobilised to attempt to solve problems of poverty and exploitation by putting capital (and capital is power) into the hands of those that created the wealth through their labour.
This motivation has been resisted by the powerful in both 'capitalist' AND so-called 'communist' countries. For the West it has been business as usual, but they have pandered to the left by exploiting foreign lands and making concessions to liberal values. In so-called communist countries, capitalism has been practiced by the institution of "state-capitalism' where the state holds all the power and has capitalised the entire economy. That was never Marx's vision.

Yes I completely agree. Im talking about the extremes of using communism to meet basic needs and capitalism to reach luxury needs. I want to write an article that makes an attempt at working this ideal and was wondering if anyone had any examples like the modern hunter gatherer tribe i mentioned. there are many examples of this for example the british NHS which provides health care (a basic need). However, i have not seen many examples of this in the extreme. For example, food or housing being free in a similar way to the NHS making health care free as food and housing are also basic needs. I have never seen this on a large scale in any modern society and im currently exploring how these ideals could possibly work. Or do the two ideals clash as people wont be driven to free market capitalism if there basic needs are met? x

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Dawn, you mentioned, If China became as rich as it should be noone would be able to afford to trade with them and Chinas unemployment rate would be through the roof and civil war would erupt killing millions of people.

Trust me, you are tied to the end of a looooooooooooooong leash of bullshit that was given to you through the main stream media.

At another point you asked me to provide a more in-depth coverage for your study.


I KNOW you will not sit through the entire 27 minutes of this video but it would have opened your eyes a bit. I KNOW you don't want to do that. STICK with the bullshit that you have already been given and ignore the real clips from this video that BEGINS to describe the atrocities that the Communist party committed upon it's own people and any others who would; stand in it's way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFXSNmXa ... ded#at=169



China's Communist Party; CCP is directly responsible for over 100,000,000 deaths; 65,000,000 deaths WITHIN China itself.



AND DON'T LOOK AT THIS!

DO NOT LOOK AT THIS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... nt_balance


Because then, that bullshit theory THAT YOU HAVE TO CONTINUE EATING will leave a sour taste in your mouth.

For the one other person who would click the link, I ask you, Where is the United States found on this list?
Where is the United State's civil war that would erupt killing millions of people?

In addition, where are the other civil wars' of the rich countries found in between China & America's trade deficit?


Keep eating Dawn. Don't worry about your study, ALL your answers will be given to you when you need them.






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[Arising_uk]

China's Communist Party; CCP is directly responsible for over 100,000,000 deaths; 65,000,000 deaths WITHIN China itself. ...

Its also the only system that has managed to stop the birth of an extra 250,000,000 mouths to feed.

If people wish to worry then note that because of their actions India is now as populous as they are but the chances of India restricting it population growth in the same way is practically nil. Given that India is also industrialising and aspiring to the 'West's' consumer model I think India may be as much or even more of an issue when it comes to future resources.

[dawnmathieson]

bill loves pictures

yes Arising UK I completely agree. population control is a moral grey area which falls under my 'Fountain of Youth' argument in ethical theory so anyone can talk to me about it there. Also Shit could always be worse hence the idea of hell. Its not really a slogan more of an amusing picture as if you know anything about seaseme street then you would know that it is the last thing he would ever say. living in a bin sucks too though, I mean his life is even shit next to giant bird and that really is shit. Shit could be worse you could be a puppet living in a bin in seaseme street for all of eternity x

[dawnmathieson]

blah from us two

Yes Chaz thank you very much this is the kind of thing i am talking about. From my anthropological studies of many of these tribes I think these societies have not failed because the principle in unworkable but because of extraneous factors.These factors have included a reluctance to accept modernity (including things like a reliance on superstition over technology) or from capitalisms growth around them (including things like land ownership laws). I think that these extreme ideals could be applied to a modern society if you were building one from scratch. Before Bill launches into another China rant, I have no idea what to do about over population except by restricting mating, allowing people to die or straight out killing people. Over population is one of the biggest ethical issues of modern times and is a completely different debate that i welcome if anyones posts on my 'Fountain of Youth' topic in applied ethics x