Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[Alexis Jacobi]

So, in order to be a proper Catholic, you have to not mind being treated like a child. Interesting.

Catholicism in that sense has to speak to everyone. The child, the woman, the adolescent, the adult. There are many levels in it. From the basic and crudely pictorial to the intellectually sophisticated.

What is curious about you, Harbal, is that your mind operates at the level of such an adolescent. You are limited by the immaturity of your intellect. Not because you are not intelligent. But lack of exposure, lack of interest really. And then your will — rebellious, resolute — locks you into childlike postures.

You require •simplistic pictures• but even those don’t illuminate your thinking.

[Harbal]

So, in order to be a proper Catholic, you have to not mind being treated like a child. Interesting.

Catholicism in that sense has to speak to everyone. The child, the woman, the adolescent, the adult. There are many levels in it. From the basic and crudely pictorial to the intellectually sophisticated.

What is curious about you, Harbal, is that your mind operates at the level of such an adolescent. You are limited by the immaturity of your intellect. Not because you are not intelligent. But lack of exposure, lack of interest really. And then your will — rebellious, resolute — locks you into childlike postures.

You require •simplistic pictures• but even those don’t illuminate your thinking.

I can live with that.

[Gary Childress]

So, in order to be a proper Catholic, you have to not mind being treated like a child. Interesting.

Catholicism in that sense has to speak to everyone. The child, the woman, the adolescent, the adult. There are many levels in it. From the basic and crudely pictorial to the intellectually sophisticated.

What is curious about you, Harbal, is that your mind operates at the level of such an adolescent. You are limited by the immaturity of your intellect. Not because you are not intelligent. But lack of exposure, lack of interest really. And then your will — rebellious, resolute — locks you into childlike postures.

You require •simplistic pictures• but even those don’t illuminate your thinking.

I can live with that.

Yes. It could always be worse. Be thankful you're not stuck in AJ's world. What an utterly depressing thought.

[FlashDangerpants]

Added note:

…

Note: I was reminded of this Ultimate Condemnatory Sixties song when reading your post.

Here

You have been blathering about all this pseudo-Christian neo-trad fraudulent nonsense for months (years given that it is just some old Gustav BJ rubbish you dug up), yet you don't even know enough about the history of Christianity to be aware of the doctrines of bodily resurrection. Then you tried to bullshit your way through it rather than just read actual sources, and when that failed you are now changing the subject. That is you in microcosm, a pseudiferous bullshitting ignoramus.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Nice attempt Flash. You are quite mistaken, naturally. I am aware of many different descriptions of the promised afterworld and, as I say, I regard them as •pictures•. St Paul expressed it as seeing through cloudy glass.

The people who created these pictures could only work with the content of their imagination. So they had to imagine that God would seek out and assemble all the molecules of their former bodies and then rejoin them with their •soul•. Yet the entire story, for us, is absurd on a dozen levels. God could just create an incorruptible body and wouldn’t have to seek after dispersed particles.

The real issue though is soul existence. The body falls away — what then is left? What am •I•?

I have no means at my disposal to conceptualize any of this. No part of the Christian story holds together. And we are all aware that in our gaze it dissolves.

And nevertheless I say that something certainly remains. And the word that keep repeating is •essence•.

What is God? What is salvation? What is sacred and what is profane? What is purity? What is justice?

What you and so many others do not (cannot) grasp is that in one way or another, with Christianity, all the most relevant and essential ideas and questions have to be encountered and answered (to the degree that they can be).

I did not change the subject either. The “subject” here is constantly morphing.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Yes. It could always be worse. Be thankful you're not stuck in AJ's world. What an utterly depressing thought.

And your world?

[Harbal]

Yes. It could always be worse. Be thankful you're not stuck in AJ's world. What an utterly depressing thought.

And your world?

If Gary thinks your word seems more depressing than his, I think you need to start worrying.

[Gary Childress]

Yes. It could always be worse. Be thankful you're not stuck in AJ's world. What an utterly depressing thought.

And your world?

I'd still rather be a basket case than a tormentor of basket cases.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I'd still rather be a basket case than a tormentor of basket cases.

That idea of being tormented has been your general accusation about the forum generally, hasn’t it?

[Gary Childress]

I'd still rather be a basket case than a tormentor of basket cases.

That idea of being tormented has been your general accusation about the forum generally, hasn’t it?

No. Just from people like yourself. Most people on the forum seem to be more accepting.

[Gary Childress]

But you're not all bad, AJ. You're just not in a place in life to accept the broken. Such is life. None of us can make life (edit: or rather the world) something it is not.

[Harbal]

But you're not all bad, AJ. You're just not in a place in life to accept the broken. Such is life. None of us can make life (edit: or rather the world) something it is not.

Everything has its time, and then declines. The Roma Empire, the British Empire, communism, Christianity... Nothing lasts forever, and everything runs its course.

[FlashDangerpants]

The people who created these pictures could only work with the content of their imagination. So they had to imagine that God would seek out and assemble all the molecules of their former bodies and then rejoin them with their •soul•. Yet the entire story, for us, is absurd on a dozen levels. God could just create an incorruptible body and wouldn’t have to seek after dispersed particles.

So what? You were doubting Phyllo's claim that the early church inisted on bodily resurrection. Just accept that it was a true claim and easily demonstrated to be so rather than doing this sub IC sin-of-pride parade.

[Alexis Jacobi]

The people who created these pictures could only work with the content of their imagination. So they had to imagine that God would seek out and assemble all the molecules of their former bodies and then rejoin them with their •soul•. Yet the entire story, for us, is absurd on a dozen levels. God could just create an incorruptible body and wouldn’t have to seek after dispersed particles.

So what? You were doubting Phyllo's claim that the early church inisted on bodily resurrection. Just accept that it was a true claim and easily demonstrated to be so rather than doing this sub IC sin-of-pride parade.

No, I doubted that a resurrection of the body in this world was Christian belief. Which is what Phyllo said.

[phyllo]

No, I doubted that a resurrection of the body in this world was Christian belief. Which is what Phyllo said.

That depends on what you mean by "this world".

Revelations and Isaiah say that there will be a 'new earth' after the last judgement. And there are references to the tree of life, which indicates a parallel or similarity to the garden.

If everyone passes to another "realm" or to heaven then there would be no need for a new earth or a tree of life.

The New Earth is an expression used in the Book of Isaiah (65:17 & 66:22), 2 Peter (3:13), and the Book of Revelation (21:1) in the Bible to describe the final state of redeemed humanity. It is one of the central doctrines of Christian eschatology and is referred to in the Nicene Creed as the world to come.

Biblical references

The twenty-first chapter of the Book of Revelation introduces the final state of perfection where, according to one commentator, "cosmic time has been turned into eternity."[1] In symbolic and visual language, God allows John to see the glory and beauty of the inheritance of His people. The first thing the reader notices about this vision is that it includes a "new heavens and a new earth" (21:1). To understand what the Bible teaches about eternity, the reader of the Apocalypse must understand the New Testament doctrine of the "New Heavens and the New Earth."[2]

The basic difference with the promises of the Old Testament is that in Revelation they also have an ontological value (Rev. 21:1;4: "Then I saw 'a new heaven and a new earth,' for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea...'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away") and no longer just gnosiological (Isaiah 65:17: "See, I will create/new heavens and a new earth./The former things will not be remembered,/nor will they come to mind").[3][4]

But, in accordance with his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, where righteousness is at home (2 Peter 3:13).

Interpretation

In Koine Greek, there were two words that are translated as "new" in the English Bible; neos and kainos. One Greek resource states:

As distinct from néos, "new in time," kainós means "new in nature" (with an implication of "better"). Both words suggest "unfamiliar," "unexpected," "wonderful," and the distinction fades with time.[5]

That kainos should not be taken as something totally new can be seen in a passage like the following:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)

Here the Apostle Paul uses kainos in the expression "new creation." Paul did not intend to convey the idea that this is a completely different individual. There is continuity between the old person and the new person to such an extent that it remains the same person, but renovated. The person is the same, but the quality of that person has been transformed.

In the same way, the biblical concept of the New Earth is one of renovation and restoration. Either on this current earth or on a rebuilt new planet. This conclusion is supported by Peter's words in his public speech in the temple at Jerusalem.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.[6]

This earth, however, will be either cleansed or destroyed by a very hot temperature of heat or a great fire, for the purpose of restoration as expressed in the following passage:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? (2 Peter 3:10-12 KJV)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Earth_(Christianity)