Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[seeds]

You speak as if the need for a spiritually-based mode of providing comfort or solace, say, for instance, in the case of the death of a loved one, is some antiquated human failing that has no place in modernity.

Why is that?

You can speculate all you want.

Rejecting a comforting absurdity cannot be rectified by seeking a flaw in the rejection...

Sure it can.

A flaw is something that needs to be dealt with.

Furthermore, I find you to be either a full-on hypocrite, or, at the very least, someone who is completely oblivious of the fact that in one breath you reject the notion of offering a "comforting absurdity" to a person in need of comforting, because I assume you believe it is wrong to lie to them,...

...while in the very next breath, after being asked for an example of what you would say to grieving parents whose child just died, you offered the following three options...

"...I would not say a thing,.."

In other words, you would be utterly useless when it comes to helping ameliorate their grief.

"...or tell them to endure as we all must endure tragedies..."

Again, nothing even remotely helpful.

...or I would lie.

And there you have it.

There's the critical "flaw" in your argument. For you are proposing that it would be okay for you to lie, but not okay for anyone offering up the possibility that the child (the child's soul) is still alive and now residing in a higher context of reality.

Again, you are either a hypocrite, or you are oblivious of your own words.

On a lighter note, in the immortal words of George Costanza...



And the point is that you need to stop wrongly calling the truly devout members of the Abrahamic religions - "liars" and "charlatans."

They may be deluded and brainwashed, perhaps, but liars and charlatans? - not so much.

Existential anxiety is the root of modern religious belief.

Good news for you!

There's another beloved member of the forum who makes that exact same assertion. His moniker is "Veritas Aequitas."

Perhaps you could join forces with him and the two of you working together will be more successful at convincing the rest of us why adopting the belief in true existential nihilism...

(as in life is utterly meaningless and has no ultimate purpose for us as individuals)

...would make the world a better place.
_______

[FlashDangerpants]

OK. Sorry. Should I call you an "ignoramus" too? I mean, just as a joke. You won't take it badly, will you?

I have an idea: call me, refer to me, exactly and precisely how you think I am. Neither less nor more.

Fair enough. I don't think you're an ignoramus.

No? Quite aside from his grotty need to remove all joy from other people's lives, he's also a pretentious little weasel with about 10% of the education he wants you to believe he holds, and the very mistaken belief that he can fill in any gaps on ther fly using all that charisma he supposes himself to possess. If you want to distill all that into one word, perhaps ignoramus is a good choice.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Quite aside from his grotty need to remove all joy from other people's lives

When you sodomize some guy it seems like •pleasure• but in the end (oops!) it is likely more similar to suffering. On the other side of that stick, even Allen Ginsberg exclaimed “Who really wants to get fucked in the ass?”.

But — taking the issue more seriously — I have been working my way through a Baltimore Catechism (1892 or thereabouts). It is extraordinary to me how demanding a •true• Catholic life is. In the domain of sexuality it is really true: fornication is regarded as sinful. In fact (I do not have the exact lines worked out) some deviant sexual activity could be “mortal sin” not merely venal.

The entire gearing of life-lived is directed to spiritual purposes and all of it revolving around the Mass — the reenactment of Christ’s sacrifice.

Joy, happiness, satisfaction, contentment — these have to be found on other levels. Charity, love, service, commitment. And everything revolving around far higher purposes and understanding.

In the Breviary every day is given a spiritual purpose. And then each hour of the day. And every season. Winter Spring Summer Fall. All of it circulating in a yearly cycle around the events of Christ’s life.

It all involves a total commitment. And it is these disciplines that were practiced for a solid thousand years in Europe.

he's also a pretentious little weasel with about 10% of the education he wants you to believe he holds

But what •education• is that exactly?

If you want to distill all that into one word, perhaps ignoramus is a good choice.

Don’t believe him Gary. Don’t!

Did you ever see Millers Crossing (Cohn brothers)?

“Listen to your heart!”

[Alexis Jacobi]

and once we became aware and scared enough we created the gods whom we could pray to and implore. Metaphysics, which includes the entire realm of gods, has long operated as a sanitarium to keep the psyche in balance by placing itself within the precincts of a higher power.

The modern sociological theory. And not without some merit. But when we come to the Christian revelation — the Hebrew revelation — and if we start from Hosea (I think one of the older Bible books) God takes a very different form. Is understood very differently. And then the vision or revelation is focused even more. Extraordinarily so in my opinion.

Where you fail is in failing to grasp that people must form •pictures•. There are very crude but elaborate pictures because it is human picture-making that determines them. And all of this in man’s imagination.

The same must be applied to the Christian and certainly the Catholic picture. All made very concrete, pictorial, tangible — representational to a child’s mind.

But that is not at all what is there in the essence of the question. The images dissipate. And what remains?

Meaning.

But again you must deny external divinity and, necessarily, the same realized internally. It is all “invented”.

[Lorikeet]

You speak as if the need for a spiritually-based mode of providing comfort or solace, say, for instance, in the case of the death of a loved one, is some antiquated human failing that has no place in modernity.

It has no place in philosophy.
For women and children special forums exist where they can socialize and share their comforting lies.

In other words, you would be utterly useless when it comes to helping ameliorate their grief.

The objective determined the means.
In philosophy the objective is not offering comfort to the berieved.....but the truth, even if it is harsh.
Philosophy is not for spirits like yours.
You are looking for comfort.
If I cared or had an ulterior motive, I would offer you comforting lies.
I don't.

Again, nothing even remotely helpful.

If you came here for "help" then you are not in the right place.
Philosophy offers insights.....that may aid, but this is not their goal.
An insight must be utilized by subjective individuals independently. Philosophy offers no 'chicken soup for the soul.'
Truth is truth....even if it hurts.

...or I would lie.

And there you have it.[/quote]There you have it.....lying is a necessary part of socializing....if the motive is to be liked, or included.....or admired....or wealth.
There's an entire industry based on lies = Hollywood.
An entire science of lies = Marketing
Religions based on lies = Abrahamic, Gnostic.

Faith healers, tarot cards, palm readers, astrologers....Wandering charlatans that have made a culture out of it = parasitism - exploiting human needs, by offering them comforting lies.
An Empire of Lies = America.

There's the critical "flaw" in your argument. For you are proposing that it would be okay for you to lie, but not okay for anyone offering up the possibility that the child (the child's soul) is still alive and now residing in a higher context of reality.

To lie consciously is not the same as to lie and believe you are speaking truth....a self-righteous self-deciving simpleton is the worst kind of liar.
Furthermore....I presented my options in order of preference.
I would rather say nothing than comfort another with lies.
In fact....a friend of mine lost his mother a few years ago and he asked me if I believed in an afterlife.....I answered truthfully, no.
I did not offer my opinion.....he asked.

Comforting another does not necessitate lies......unless the one to be comforted has based his life on them and seeks reaffirmations.

But if I had to "comfort someone"....and lying was the only way I could comfort someone who believes in lies, I would repeat the lies he believes are true....It would be cringe, for me.
I've never done so.
Social conventions are not philosophy.
Lies are part of socializing.....even sexual relationships are based on exaggerations of the truth, or their intentional concealment.

Again, you are either a hypocrite, or you are oblivious of your own words.

Or.....you are a naive dolt and oblivious to my opinions.

On a lighter note, in the immortal words of George Costanza...

He speaks for your kind.....a postmodern.
This should be your kind's motto.
Believe a lie long enough and it becomes true, right?
Or....if a lie is Popular and repeated constantly, it is, practically true.

How does one survive among liars?
He does not speak, or he pretends to believe their lies.

And the point is that you need to stop wrongly calling the truly devout members of the Abrahamic religions - "liars" and "charlatans."

They may be deluded and brainwashed, perhaps, but liars and charlatans? - not so much.

Are you one of them?
Self-decpetion is the worst kind of deceit.

Good news for you!
Civilization is built on lies.

No shit?
Wow....quite an insight.
And philosophy is what?

Such a needy mind......why would it be "good news" for me, when you are the one defending liars?
Ha!!
Good news for you, hypocrite.
Charlatans is what you prefer.

There's another beloved member of the forum who makes that exact same assertion. His moniker is "Veritas Aequitas."

Perhaps you could join forces with him and the two of you working together will be more successful at convincing the rest of us why adopting the belief in true existential nihilism...

And leave you and your ilk to your self-deceptions?
Why do you come to a philosophy forum if you only want to be left alone and live in peace in your lies?

(as in life is utterly meaningless and has no ultimate purpose for us as individuals)

...would make the world a better place.

The world is full of meaning.....but void of purpose.
Not the same thing.

For life its primordial purpose is survival.
For higher forms of life, it can be anything.
Like lying to yourself to endure existence....like for you and your kind.


When a liar is exposed, he immediately accuses the one exposing him of what he is most guilty of.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Added note:

…

Note: I was reminded of this Ultimate Condemnatory Sixties song when reading your post.

Here

[Gary Childress]

Don’t believe him Gary. Don’t!

Did you ever see Millers Crossing (Cohn brothers)?

“Listen to your heart!”

No. I never saw millers crossing. When did they cross and did they make it OK?

[Alexis Jacobi]

No. I never saw millers crossing. When did they cross and did they make it OK?

Here

[Harbal]

But — taking the issue more seriously — I have been working my way through a Baltimore Catechism (1892 or thereabouts). It is extraordinary to me how demanding a •true• Catholic life is. In the domain of sexuality it is really true: fornication is regarded as sinful. In fact (I do not have the exact lines worked out) some deviant sexual activity could be “mortal sin” not merely venal.

But why is it a "sin", what is the actual problem with sexual activity? And what is "deviant" supposed to mean, other than something different to what someone might regard as usual, or normal?

[Alexis Jacobi]

Theology class for Harbal!

A sin is an act that •offends God•.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Theology class for Harbal!

A sin is an act that •offends God•.

More specifically:

Here

[Harbal]

Theology class for Harbal!

A sin is an act that •offends God•.

And that's it, is it, that is all we are allowed to know?

[Gary Childress]

Theology class for Harbal!

A sin is an act that •offends God•.

More specifically:

Here

“Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.” (Ezekiel 16.49-50)

From the sounds of it you'd better repent AJ.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And that's it, is it, that is all we are allowed to know?

You seek a fuller theological description? Christianity deplores sensuality and is based in a transmutation of the lower into what is understood to be higher. Very Greco-Platonic.

The concept is expressed here:

Thus, a good man, though a slave, is free; but a wicked man, though a king, is a slave. For he serves, not one man alone, but what is worse, as many masters as he has vices.

Augustine of Hippo, in City of God

[Harbal]

So, in order to be a proper Catholic, you have to not mind being treated like a child. Interesting.