Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

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Alexis Jacobi
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Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

The following is a quote from Christopher Dawson's The Historic Reality of Christian Culture: A Way to the Renewal of Human Life (Routledge, 1960) I read this book some years back and it has very much influenced my outlook. As it happens -- and this note goes out to all who participated in the Christianity thread that endured for so long -- my own position has become full-circle. I accept the necessity of a renovation of the relationship to what is presented, metaphysically, through Christianity and *the Christian picture*. For some that amounts to a wishy-washy way of putting it and I acknowledge that critique. All I can say is that each person, inside of their mind, and with their imagining faculty, will visualize what I so often refer to as a "metaphysical reality" according to their interpretive means and equipment. Even the absolute atheist does this, in my view.

Personally, I am now far more certain and far more committed to the notion and the undertaking of *restoration* and *revivification* of that relationship to what I (somewhat abstractly of course) refer to as *metaphysical reality*. I am certain -- more certain in any case -- that it is the inner relationship that determines if there is relationship at all. What this means, in the most essential sense, is that the individual has, or does not have, that relationship. Everything begins from that point. Or put another way, it comes to an end when the relationship is broken or inhibited.

If we recognize, and I do, that our culture is sick, we must also understand that we manifest this sickness in one way or another, in one degree or another. Obviously then, I am an advocate for defining "A way to the renewal of Christian culture" which, necessarily, involves an inner renewal.

So what I propose -- it remains to be seen if the topic will gain any traction -- is an examination, from the perspective of Christopher Dawson and other apologists of his sort, of just what happens when the conceptual pathway to that *supernatural* world of metaphysical reality is broken and shattered, as is occurring strongly and noticeably in our culture(s) and then, if this is established, to ask the question and examine what such *renewal* would involve -- and if it is even possible.

Here is a selection from the above-mentioned book for your examination:
The average man's 'objection to Christian civilization is no an objection to medieval culture, which incorporated every act of social life in a sacred order of sacramental symbols and liturgical observances — such a culture is too remote from our experience to stir our emotions one way or the other: it is the dread of moral rigorism, of alcoholic prohibition or the censorship of books and films or of the fundamentalist banning of the teaching of biological evolution.

But what the advocates of a Christian civilization wish is not this narrowing of the cultural horizons, but just the reverse:the recovery of that spiritual dimension of social life the lack of which has cramped and darkened the culture of the modern world. We have acquired new resources of power and of which the old Christian civilization had hardly dreamed. Yet at the same time, we have lost that spiritual vision man formerly possessed-the sense of an eternal world on which the transitory temporal world of human affairs was dependent. This vision is not only a Christian insight: for it is intrinsic to the great civilizations of the ancient East and to the pagan world as well, so that it is not Christian civilization alone·that is at stake.

Here I think John Baillie, in his little book on What is Christian Civilization, makes a useful and necessary distinction when he objects to the use of the word "pagan” to describe the dominant spirit of a secularist society:
“The word pagan [he says] is often unthinkingly used as if it meant a man who was devoid of all religious sentiment and worshipped no gods. But all real pagans are full of religious sentiment and their fundamental error rather lies in worshipping too many gods. The alternative today is not between being Christian or being pagan, but between being Christian and being nothing in particular, not between belonging to the Church and belonging to some social spiritual community that claims an equally wholehearted allegiance, but between belonging to the Church and belonging nowhere, giving no wholehearted allegiance to anything. Such is the tragedy that has overtaken so much of our common life that it belongs nowhere, has no spiritual home, no ultimate standards of reference and little definite conception of the direction in which it desires to move.”
I think this is surely true as a diagnosis of our present civilization. But society cannot remain stationary in this kind of spiritual no man's land. It will inevitably become a prey to the unclean spirits that seek to make their dwelling in the empty human soul. For a secular civilization that has no end beyond its own satisfaction is a monstrosity -- a cancerous growth which will ultimately destroy itself. The only power that can liberate man from this kingdom of darkness is the Christian faith.

For in the modern Western world there are no alternative solutions, no choice of possible other religions. It is a choice between Christianity or nothing. And Christianity is still a live option. The scattered elements of Christian tradition and Christian culture still exist in the modern world, though they may be temporarily forgotten or neglected. Thus the revival of Chris-tian civilization does not involve the creation of a totally new civilization, but rather the cultural reawakening or reactivation of the Christian minority.

Our civilization has become secularized largely because the Christian element has adopted a passive attitude and allowed the leadership of culture to pass to the non-Christian minority. And this cultural passivity has not been due to any profound existentialist concern with the human predicament and divine judgment, but on the contrary to a tendency toward social conformity and too ready an acceptance of the values of a secularized society. It is the intellectual and social inertia of Christians that is the real obstacle to a restoration of Christian culture. For if it is true that more than half the population of this country are church members, Christians can hardly say that they are powerless to influence society. It is the will, not the power, that is lacking.
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Harbal
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Harbal »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:55 pm All I can say is that each person, inside of their mind, and with their imagining faculty, will visualize what I so often refer to as a "metaphysical reality" according to their interpretive means and equipment. Even the absolute atheist does this, in my view.
Yes, everyone has their own metaphysical reality in a sense, and to some extent, because we all experience reality differently, according to our upbringing and influences, our prejudices, our pre-suppositions, our imagination, and any number of other factors. Not everyone would agree with that, of course, and many -perhaps most- people think that reality is just there, right before our eyes, and if we don't quite see what they see, there must be something wrong with us. Despite your apparent reverence for metaphysics, I think you are more like that than you realise.
If we recognize, and I do, that our culture is sick,
When wasn't it "sick"? I am not much of a reader, as you very well know, but I am familiar enough with Dickens to know that society was pretty sick in his day, and Victorian Britain was one of the most religiously, and morally, earnest periods in our history. It's just that back then the establishment, and the more genteel and refined portion of society, were more successfully able to push and keep the visible symptoms of the sickness out of site.
So what I propose -- it remains to be seen if the topic will gain any traction -- is an examination, from the perspective of Christopher Dawson and other apologists of his sort, of just what happens when the conceptual pathway to that *supernatural* world of metaphysical reality is broken and shattered, as is occurring strongly and noticeably in our culture(s) and then, if this is established, to ask the question and examine what such *renewal* would involve -- and if it is even possible.
Yes, I can't help wondering what this "renewal" would involve, myself. I suspect, and I think others here also suspect it, that you have a firmer idea of what it would involve than you think it wise to own up to. Am I wrong about that, do you really not already have a proposed remedy up your sleeve?
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

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Harbal wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:54 pm… do you really not already have a proposed remedy up your sleeve?
lol
Iwannaplato
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Iwannaplato »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:55 pm The following is a quote from Christopher Dawson's The Historic Reality of Christian Culture: A Way to the Renewal of Human Life (Routledge, 1960) I read this book some years back and it has very much influenced my outlook. As it happens -- and this note goes out to all who participated in the Christianity thread that endured for so long -- my own position has become full-circle. I accept the necessity of a renovation of the relationship to what is presented, metaphysically, through Christianity and *the Christian picture*. For some that amounts to a wishy-washy way of putting it and I acknowledge that critique. All I can say is that each person, inside of their mind, and with their imagining faculty, will visualize what I so often refer to as a "metaphysical reality" according to their interpretive means and equipment. Even the absolute atheist does this, in my view.

Personally, I am now far more certain and far more committed to the notion and the undertaking of *restoration* and *revivification* of that relationship to what I (somewhat abstractly of course) refer to as *metaphysical reality*. I am certain -- more certain in any case -- that it is the inner relationship that determines if there is relationship at all. What this means, in the most essential sense, is that the individual has, or does not have, that relationship. Everything begins from that point. Or put another way, it comes to an end when the relationship is broken or inhibited.

If we recognize, and I do, that our culture is sick, we must also understand that we manifest this sickness in one way or another, in one degree or another. Obviously then, I am an advocate for defining "A way to the renewal of Christian culture" which, necessarily, involves an inner renewal.

So what I propose -- it remains to be seen if the topic will gain any traction -- is an examination, from the perspective of Christopher Dawson and other apologists of his sort, of just what happens when the conceptual pathway to that *supernatural* world of metaphysical reality is broken and shattered, as is occurring strongly and noticeably in our culture(s) and then, if this is established, to ask the question and examine what such *renewal* would involve -- and if it is even possible.
This is a reaction I have frequently to your posts: it feels like you are tiptoing around something and not quite getting to saying it. I end up thinking the above could have been a single blunt paragraph, and a short one.
“The word pagan [he says] is often unthinkingly used as if it meant a man who was devoid of all religious sentiment and worshipped no gods. But all real pagans are full of religious sentiment and their fundamental error rather lies in worshipping too many gods.
I understand that this is a piece of a text inside a piece of a text, but saying pagans were making an error (but the monotheists are not) without justification comes off as silly to me. Let's just throw out that perhaps the pagans were right. But then the difference between the monotheists and the pagans is not just around numbers of deities - and the Trinity, coupled with the holiness of Mary in Christianity, is extremely plural in practice anyway. Pagans had a rather different metaphysics, if we lump them all together like this. They had different ideas about evil, the body, sex, the immanence of deities at least also, nature and more. There's lot of room, for example, for both pagans and monotheisms to be better than each other and worse than each other.

Also, the way this quote within a quote was written it is as if we cannot choose pagan (and I would add indigenous/shamanistic,/animist systems) But we can, and in fact those have been growing amongst not just people with fairly recent genetic connections to those religions, but also in people, like those of European descent, where there has been a much longer pause for their genes in general. Also there have been underground and marginalized paganisms pretty much everywhere including Europe.

So, I want to put back on the table the respiritualisation via non-monotheistic religions, or better put non-Abrahamic religions. This has already been happening and I think there are good reasons why these others are coming back.
The alternative today is not between being Christian or being pagan, but between being Christian and being nothing in particular, not between belonging to the Church and belonging to some social spiritual community that claims an equally wholehearted allegiance, but between belonging to the Church and belonging nowhere, giving no wholehearted allegiance to anything. Such is the tragedy that has overtaken so much of our common life that it belongs nowhere, has no spiritual home, no ultimate standards of reference and little definite conception of the direction in which it desires to move.”
And, so, given what I said above, I disagree. That is not THE choice, though I can see that some people think that's the choice.

And I think this is an important issue. We are often told: This is the choice. And even the enemies out there will tell us that we have to choose between teams A and B. They agree on little else but they agree that we must choose between them and 'the enemy', while I often feel like the two teams I am shown are both the enemy or at least not for me.
I think this is surely true as a diagnosis of our present civilization. But society cannot remain stationary in this kind of spiritual no man's land. It will inevitably become a prey to the unclean spirits that seek to make their dwelling in the empty human soul.
Is this metaphorical to t he writer?
For a secular civilization that has no end beyond its own satisfaction is a monstrosity -- a cancerous growth which will ultimately destroy itself. The only power that can liberate man from this kingdom of darkness is the Christian faith.
I'm not sure why the only choice is something that has already failed. I'm being polemical here, but seriously.....
For in the modern Western world there are no alternative solutions, no choice of possible other religions. It is a choice between Christianity or nothing. And Christianity is still a live option. The scattered elements of Christian tradition and Christian culture still exist in the modern world, though they may be temporarily forgotten or neglected. Thus the revival of Chris-tian civilization does not involve the creation of a totally new civilization, but rather the cultural reawakening or reactivation of the Christian minority.
Our civilization has become secularized largely because the Christian element has adopted a passive attitude and allowed the leadership of culture to pass to the non-Christian minority.
Our civilization has become secularized precisely because of the dualism in Christianity. That it posited the primary goods as non-corporeal. That there was a thanatos aspect to that religion. That Jesus gave up the world to secular authority, rendering it to Caesar, and posited an elsewhere of goodness to come.

The unfolding consequences of that are precisely the kinds of secularization - for good and for ill - we have today.
And this cultural passivity has not been due to any profound existentialist concern with the human predicament and divine judgment, but on the contrary to a tendency toward social conformity and too ready an acceptance of the values of a secularized society.
Are we really going to contrast Christianity with conformity??????
It is the intellectual and social inertia of Christians that is the real obstacle to a restoration of Christian culture. For if it is true that more than half the population of this country are church members, Christians can hardly say that they are powerless to influence society. It is the will, not the power, that is lacking.
Perhaps the will is lacking in part because they realize the problems of Christianity. Whatever there distaste for modern society, they also realize that a Christian society was and would be a serious problem of another kind. Been there, done that.
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Iwannaplato »

Harbal wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:54 pm When wasn't it "sick"?
I had the same reaction. All this Golden Age BS.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:28 pm This is a reaction I have frequently to your posts: it feels like you are tiptoing around something and not quite getting to saying it. I end up thinking the above could have been a single blunt paragraph, and a short one.
Perhaps you’re paranoid or suspicious? That is an option here. Perhaps you can define your paranoia and therefore clarify what you mean. What could I secretly be saying, as distinct from what I said?

Your critique does not make sense unless you clarify what you mean.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:28 pm Is this metaphorical to the writer?

You said much in your post — these things are all part of the conversation — but to this question my answer is: Dawson is an historian of Christian Europe. I know of no work of his where he talks intimately of the innards of Christian belief.

If he speaks of a •spirit• or of destructive spirits I assume that he means it in some real sense. And so let’s take as an example Jung’s essay on the •possession• of the German nation by Wotan. The essay is on line and I recommend it highly.

Obviously, for Jung, psychic events are as real — more real in effect — than other, perhaps merely material, factors. And this is demonstrated, if not proven, by •what happened in Germany•.

Is that all metaphor? How can I — or you — answer that?
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:57 pm Your critique does not make sense unless you clarify what you mean.
Are you even an actual Christian who believes in God and accepts Jebus as his personal saviour and all that stuff, or are you just a totalitarian who thinks Christianity is a useful took for keeping the plerbs in line?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:32 pm
Harbal wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 4:54 pm When wasn't it "sick"?
I had the same reaction. All this Golden Age BS.
Having read numerous titles of Dawson he in no sense is a nostalgic for Golden Ages.

I think he would say though that some recent and notable manifestations of sickness have been of greater consequence.

And he would say that, in his view, the severance that has taken shape in Europe is having and will continue to have deleterious consequences.

Hence his interest in what is capable of restoration.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:10 pm Are you even an actual Christian who believes in God and accepts Jebus as his personal saviour and all that stuff, or are you just a totalitarian who thinks Christianity is a useful took for keeping the plerbs in line?
Personal salvation? What is that? What is one to be saved from?
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:18 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:10 pm Are you even an actual Christian who believes in God and accepts Jebus as his personal saviour and all that stuff, or are you just a totalitarian who thinks Christianity is a useful took for keeping the plerbs in line?
Personal salvation? What is that? What is one to be saved from?
So one thing that people are likely to find suspicious about you is that you are obviously not a Christian, so all your blather about reviving Christianity just for the traditions is blatantly manipulative. Same goes for your little spunk-sock Wizzy, who claims to be a Catholic one minute and a pagan the next.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

The entire forum really, from one end to the other, is suspiciousness embodied.
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:36 pm The entire forum really, from one end to the other, is suspiciousness embodied.
Yes, you are that guy in the joke who finds that everybody he meets is an arsehole.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:27 pm So one thing that people are likely to find suspicious about you is that you are obviously not a Christian, so all your blather about reviving Christianity just for the traditions is blatantly manipulative.
Why do you say that I am not a Christian? How do you define that?

If Dawson is our measure (or TS Eliot, or Chesterton or CS Lewis — some important apologists of recent — I do not think they would say the ‘revival’ has a great deal to do with traditions in the way you seem to mean, and far more to do with inner status.

That would be my view as well.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2024 6:39 pm who finds that everybody he meets is an arsehole.
What I find is much more that everyone shows themselves, in their ideas and stances, as consequences and outcomes.

Arsehole is no real descriptor at all, if you think about it.
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