Is there moral high ground? And if so, what is it?

[Gary Childress]

After the atrocities that Hamas committed, Israel has an obligation to neutralize it.
We are not talking about Hamas attacking “again”, it is not stopping.
The fact that he keeps a million of his co-religionists as a human shield suggests that he continues his atrocities, and he does not care about the life of the population in Gaza.

How much is it worth to Israel to "neutralize" Hamas?

Israel pays a terrible price, guys, instead of doing science, art, production, they go to defend the Land of Israel, die, and remain crippled.
Terrorists are firing rockets at the entire Country and killing civilians.

But to make it clear clearly, Hamas’s goal is not a “Palestinian state", but global jihad, and they do not hide it. Their goal is to establish the power of Islam wherever there are people.
Israel for them is a tactical goal, which in their minds they can achieve with greater ease, and the strategic goal is the whole world.
From their fundamental, theological point of view, “polytheistic Christians”, atheists, are for them an even greater “evil” than the Jews.
And they will get to you too, local lovers of jihadists, they will get there and kill you with pleasure, just help them get to you.

But I won’t engage in any more political analysis here; the topic here is philosophical, not political actualities.

You paint Gazans and Hamas as mindless robots that want only to kill and take over the world. I can't believe that there are such people in the world aside from some political leaders out there. I think it's more likely that most Gazans just want to live good lives just like the rest of us. Instead, they've been living in horrible conditions of poverty and destitution. It seems to me that it would be better to treat them like human beings.

I've met a few Palestinians who've immigrated to the US in my life. They get here and they just want to live good lives like everyone else. They're not out spreading Jihad on our streets. When people are backed into a corner, they tend to lash out as Israelis are now doing also. I wish you the best, however, I think Israeli officials are becoming overzealous now. If the situation can be de-escalated, then I think we will all find out that we are not much different from each other.

[Janoah]

I think it's more likely that most Gazans just want to live good lives just like the rest of us.

Of course, there are people who want to live in peace, but ideologically active jihadists “make the difference.”
I can give an example from my personal experience.
I worked in Tajikistan, in the republic bordering Afghanistan, I am a hydraulic engineer.
It so happened that when I decided to go to Israel, anti-Russian pogroms took place in Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan.
I was once driving a taxi, and the Tajik driver told me:
- Here I am driving in my taxi, and a crowd stops me, gives me a crowbar, and says, “either you come with us to beat the Russians, or we will kill you here with this crowbar.”
This principle is implemented wherever there are Muslim jihadists.
A Tajik excavator operator I knew, a nice guy, once told me:
- Now we are here, and we will be in Moscow and everywhere, because we are multiplying much faster.
That is, an ordinary Muslim has on his mind the creation of a “demographic bomb”; for him this is a matter of course.
Therefore, jihadists are not very worried about the loss of the masses of their coreligionists, the main thing for them is to cause mischief with their jihad.
In Gaza, they could live like in Hong Kong or Singapore, nothing stopped them, on the contrary, Israel and the world community were ready to help them with this, they had a seaport and an airport, a border with Egypt, but the jihadists were not worried about the lives of their co-religionists, they can’t wait to destroy Israel and then subjugate the whole world to Sharia. And they engaged in terror not only against Israel, but the “Muslim brothers” also engaged in terror against Egypt.
And the United States supported the “legally elected Muslim Brotherhood” in Egypt.

But a more interesting question is how do You explain that no one even tried to answer the question of your topic on the merits?

[Gary Childress]

But a more interesting question is how do You explain that no one even tried to answer the question of your topic on the merits?

Others have their own priorities. I can't make others answer what they're not interested in answering. Such is life.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Israel, quite unfortunately for all concerned but especially Israelis and, to a lesser extent, world Jewry, was founded on real crimes. If one believes that, as I do, one will then be capable of grasping the *consequences* that flow from it. Israel is a criminal state. Perhaps one major issue is that it was established right in the very middle of a modern era. Had it been established long ago the criminal issue would not be relevant.

It is possible -- one can try to take this route -- that those who *support Israel* can try to present another, opposing picture, and paint the establishment of Israel as a *good* opposed by some bad actors which, necessarily, must be eliminated, and as I sometimes say if that works for you keep it up!

Jewish history is a catastrophe. Within it, within Judaism perhaps -- I am not exactly sure how to state it -- are the seeds that plague Jewish history and Jewry. And because Jewish history has not ended I would say there is trouble ahead for Israel.

Again, I am aware that there are people on this forum who have a radically different interpretation. They resort to a very different set of *facts* to build their case.

If we do conceive of a God who punishes nations -- and only one maybe two here do believe that -- then Israel the nation will be punished. The seeds of good or bad fortune are sowed at initiation points. The *punishment* I refer to can be thought of as arising within Jewish consciousness (and that of punishment and retribution).

[Janoah]

As usual, this guy dumped his usual portion of lust of malice here.

[Alexis Jacobi]

As usual, this guy dumped his usual portion of lust of malice here.

You are making a case that you could not back up. For you, anyone who does not agree with your position suffers from a defect, and you describe that as lust of malice.

You are so far off that you are actually outside of the possibility of a *rational conversation* on the topic.

If anything my view is one of realism.

[Alexis Jacobi]

How bizarre to watch the Democrat Establishment begin their ultra-hypocritical about-face: because they have examined the numbers and know that if they don't bump Netanyahu out of the picture (really, a stab in the back since they were with him from the start) they may lose the up-coming election. These people are snake-like critters:

NYTs today:

Senator Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York and the majority leader, on Thursday delivered a pointed speech on the Senate floor excoriating Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel as a major obstacle to peace in the Middle East and calling for new leadership in Israel, five months into the war.

Many Democratic lawmakers have condemned Mr. Netanyahu’s leadership and his right-wing governing coalition, and President Biden has even criticized the Israeli military’s offensive in Gaza as “over the top.” But Mr. Schumer’s speech amounted to the sharpest critique yet from a senior American elected official — effectively urging Israelis to replace Mr. Netanyahu.

“I believe in his heart, his highest priority is the security of Israel,” said Mr. Schumer, the highest-ranking Jewish elected official in the United States. “However, I also believe Prime Minister Netanyahu has lost his way by allowing his political survival to take precedence over the best interests of Israel.”

He added: “He has been too willing to tolerate the civilian toll in Gaza, which is pushing support for Israel worldwide to historic lows. Israel cannot survive if it becomes a pariah.”

Mr. Schumer’s speech was the latest reflection of the growing dissatisfaction among Democrats, particularly progressives, with Israel’s conduct of the war and its toll on Palestinian civilians, which has created a strategic and political dilemma for Mr. Biden. Republicans have tried to capitalize on that dynamic, hugging Mr. Netanyahu closer as Democrats repudiate him.

Your opinion on the view of Ron Unz -- and if it means anything he grew up in a Yiddish speaking home in LA -- would be appreciated. Is that also lust of malice? What is the cause?

[Dubious]

From what's happening now, it seems to fall in place that the initial revenge attack on Gaza is being replaced by an opportunity for Israel to claim more land by completely subjugating the Palestinians as a whole not just Hamas who serve as the "official" excuse.