phyllo wrote: ↑Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:47 pm
Have you got any examples of how this works?
Preferably involving ice cream.
The eating of ice cream example above is a matter of virtue not morality.
What is related to morality [& ethics] is confined to the management of evil impulses to enable its related good.
Here is an example specific to "morality is objective",
"It is immoral to torture and kill babies for pleasure [or in war, etc.]"
The above is an objective moral fact in the FSK intersubjective sense [Nagel is one proponent of this].
However, a fundamentalist realist [philosophical] will insist the above is not a 'fact' like "this is a table".
To realists, it cannot be a moral fact, it is merely an opinion, belief, or judgement based on human conditioned mental feelings.
Thus a
moral relativist will insist people are entitled to their different moral beliefs.
A
moral skeptic "deny or doubt moral knowledge, justified moral belief, moral truth, moral facts or properties, and reasons to be moral."
SEP
A
moral nihilist believe "nothing is morally right or morally wrong and that morality doesn't exist".
The erroneous basis of the above fundamentalist realist [philosophical] is they believe in a mind-independent reality comprising mind-independent facts, truth, knowledge and objectivity.
Since moral elements are related to feelings, opinions, beliefs and judgment, i.e. all humanly conditioned, moral elements are never mind-independent facts, morality cannot be factual nor objective.
I have argued, the fundamentalist realist [philosophical] belief in an 'absolutely' mind-independent reality is not tenable at all. The realist 'What is fact' is grounded on an illusion.
Why Philosophical Realism is Illusory
viewtopic.php?t=40167
PH's 'What is Fact' is Illusory
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39577
Nagel's view on morality;
Re the moral element,
"It is immoral to torture and kill babies for pleasure [or in war]"
the above is objective morally based on intersubjectivity as stated by Nagel;
- Nagel: "Thinking reflectively about ethics from this standpoint, one must take every other agent's standpoint on value as seriously as one's own, since one's own perspective is just a subjective take on an inter-subjective whole; one's personal set of reasons is thus swamped by the objective reasons of all others."
In the above case, objectivity is intersubjectivity.
- Nagel: "Reasons and values that withstand detached critical scrutiny are objective, but more subjective reasons and values can nevertheless be objectively tolerated."
In the above, detached critical scrutiny [independent of one's personal opinion] can only be done within a specific Framework and System [FSR-FSK] of a collective-of-subjects [humans] that will enable intersubjective consensus.
Thus the moral element;
"It is immoral to torture and kill babies for pleasure [or in war]"
is an objective moral fact based on intersubjectivity as conditioned within a morality-proper FSR-FSK.
My view:
Nagel's approach based on
"Thinking reflectively [rationally and critically] is limited in a way.
What I had proposed is the objective-moral-fact 'inhibition' [e.g. the above re killing babies] must be supported by empirical verification and justification via the scientific model within a morality-proper FSK [intersubjectively].
This is a possibility in the near future based on the exponential advances of scientific knowledge especially in the neurosciences, cognitive sciences, genetics and so on.