Hamas and Netanyahu: Another Plague Upon Humanity

[Iwannaplato]

Apparently, the Netanyahu government was monetarily backing Hamas for a while because they knew they could count on Hamas to undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinians crisis, giving the Netanyahu government the upper hand over the Palestinians instead of allowing more moderate Palestinian officials to protest Israeli control. Israeli extremists have been illegally advocating for Israeli settlements to overrun the Palestinians. It appears that Hamas and the Netanyahu government along with Israeli extremists all need to go. Fuck both groups. Both Israel and Gaza deserve better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8

Sounds like another ridiculous conspiracy theory. What could Israel possibly have to gain by bankrolling Hamas? Not that it would need to anyway. Hamas has been pocketing aid to Gaza for decades. How else do you think its leaders because billionaires?

I have no idea if they did such a thing, but it wouldn't be Israel, it would be hawkish factions in Israel, who want an all-out war with Hamas. I think it would be easy to find motivations for such a thing and it's not like wars haven't been started before, even by democracies on BS grounds. Further there could have been passive versions of this. That they stood down or organized a standdown for the same motives.

[accelafine]

Apparently, the Netanyahu government was monetarily backing Hamas for a while because they knew they could count on Hamas to undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinians crisis, giving the Netanyahu government the upper hand over the Palestinians instead of allowing more moderate Palestinian officials to protest Israeli control. Israeli extremists have been illegally advocating for Israeli settlements to overrun the Palestinians. It appears that Hamas and the Netanyahu government along with Israeli extremists all need to go. Fuck both groups. Both Israel and Gaza deserve better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9PKQbkJv8

Sounds like another ridiculous conspiracy theory. What could Israel possibly have to gain by bankrolling Hamas? Not that it would need to anyway. Hamas has been pocketing aid to Gaza for decades. How else do you think its leaders because billionaires?

I have no idea if they did such a thing, but it wouldn't be Israel, it would be hawkish factions in Israel, who want an all-out war with Hamas. I think it would be easy to find motivations for such a thing and it's not like wars haven't been started before, even by democracies on BS grounds. Further there could have been passive versions of this. That they stood down or organized a standdown for the same motives.

Or perhaps Israel just wants its babies, children and elderly back? I understand that must be incomprehensible to you.

Hamas must be spending a fortune on propaganda PR bullshit spinners. Don't worry. It's only a drop in the bucket of its multi billion dollar fortune. Of course the West is lapping it up because it suits the woke agenda.

[Iwannaplato]

Or perhaps Israel just wants its babies, children and elderly back? I understand that must be incomprehensible to you.

I don't know how you drew that conclusion from what I wrote. Of course most Israelis would want their loved ones back. Did you read what I wrote?

Hamas must be spending a fortune on propaganda PR bullshit spinners. Don't worry. It's only a drop in the bucket of its multi billion dollar fortune. Of course the West is lapping it up because it suits the woke agenda.

Same question as above.

[accelafine]

Or perhaps Israel just wants its babies, children and elderly back? I understand that must be incomprehensible to you.

I don't know how you drew that conclusion from what I wrote. Of course most Israelis would want their loved ones back. Did you read what I wrote?

Hamas must be spending a fortune on propaganda PR bullshit spinners. Don't worry. It's only a drop in the bucket of its multi billion dollar fortune. Of course the West is lapping it up because it suits the woke agenda.

Same question as above.

You suggested there could be factions in Israel funding Hamas. Why would any factions in Israel need to 'bankroll' Hamas? Hamas has billions at its disposal-- and certainly not from Israel.

[Iwannaplato]

You suggested there could be factions in Israel funding Hamas. Why would any factions in Israel need to 'bankroll' Hamas? Hamas has billions at its disposal-- and certainly not from Israel.

I don't know where Hamas gets its money. That hawkish factions in Israel could have allowed or in a variety of secret ways supported Hamas and in specific the horrible attacks is not something I can rule out. Sociopathic groups withing governments and with power in the intelligence, with or without powerful backers in the same societies do all sorts of things, often in complete disregard for their own people and the people of other groups/nations. I don't know if that happened in this case. But the argument I was responding to assumed that ALL OF ISRAEL or the majority of Israel would never make such a decision, which I agree with, but it also assumed that countries make decisions as a unit. They don't. If someone wants to dismiss something, they need to dismiss the better version of what they are dismissing. Which goes for people on all sides of an issue.

I am sure some people think Israel decides things like a mass, everybody there decides sort of way, be even most conspiracy theories or realist evaluators who consider such a thing possible are thinking that a faction made such a decision.

Most people pick a side on any issue or in any conflict. They then make it all binary and simple with one bad guy and one good guy. The they go about dismissing the least intelligent arguments and people on the other side.

As far as I can tell that's not doing much. Right now anyone criticizing Israel is likely to be called antisemitic and implicitly accused or explicitly accused of being a Nazi. Any one criticizing the citizens of Palestine and sometimes even criticizing Hamas, get labelled Islamophobes and fascists.

This kind of binary schema gets used by monsters on both sides. And the dismissal of everything that leaves open for or suggest there is or might be a conspiracy gets labelled the absurd term 'conspiracy theory' as if there are not conspiracies. As if governments and/or factions within them, even democratic ones, haven't sacrificed their own people to do things that benefit a portion of those in power, though not at all the nation as a whole.

We're all supposed to pretend that this can't happen, even though we know it has happened and not in some deep dark past.

But, sure, we can go on pretending whole nations make decisions, which would, yes, entail, that no government or no faction within such a government could sacrifice large numbers of its own people for their own benefit.

[accelafine]

You suggested there could be factions in Israel funding Hamas. Why would any factions in Israel need to 'bankroll' Hamas? Hamas has billions at its disposal-- and certainly not from Israel.

I don't know where Hamas gets its money. That hawkish factions in Israel could have allowed or in a variety of secret ways supported Hamas and in specific the horrible attacks is not something I can rule out. Sociopathic groups withing governments and with power in the intelligence, with or without powerful backers in the same societies do all sorts of things, often in complete disregard for their own people and the people of other groups/nations. I don't know if that happened in this case. But the argument I was responding to assumed that ALL OF ISRAEL or the majority of Israel would never make such a decision, which I agree with, but it also assumed that countries make decisions as a unit. They don't. If someone wants to dismiss something, they need to dismiss the better version of what they are dismissing. Which goes for people on all sides of an issue.

I am sure some people think Israel decides things like a mass, everybody there decides sort of way, be even most conspiracy theories or realist evaluators who consider such a thing possible are thinking that a faction made such a decision.

Most people pick a side on any issue or in any conflict. They then make it all binary and simple with one bad guy and one good guy. The they go about dismissing the least intelligent arguments and people on the other side.

As far as I can tell that's not doing much. Right now anyone criticizing Israel is likely to be called antisemitic and implicitly accused or explicitly accused of being a Nazi. Any one criticizing the citizens of Palestine and sometimes even criticizing Hamas, get labelled Islamophobes and fascists.

This kind of binary schema gets used by monsters on both sides. And the dismissal of everything that leaves open for or suggest there is or might be a conspiracy gets labelled the absurd term 'conspiracy theory' as if there are not conspiracies. As if governments and/or factions within them, even democratic ones, haven't sacrificed their own people to do things that benefit a portion of those in power, though not at all the nation as a whole.

We're all supposed to pretend that this can't happen, even though we know it has happened and not in some deep dark past.

But, sure, we can go on pretending whole nations make decisions, which would, yes, entail, that no government or no faction within such a government could sacrifice large numbers of its own people for their own benefit.

Find some evidence or shut up. It's irrelevant anyway. Irrelevant to the children who were burned alive, and irrelevant to their parents who had to watch their children being first raped and then tortured to death.

[accelafine]

This is what oppressed people do. A teenaged Israeli girl who was tortured and burned alive, along with her 6 month old sibling who was found next to her.

hamas.png (190.67 KiB) Viewed 2343 times

Now let's talk politics and history.

[Iwannaplato]

If it's somehow helping you or making you feel better to come to a philosophy forum and yell, great. If you're finding it unpleasant, I'm sure you'll figure out what to do. There are certainly better outlets. If I assert that a faction of the Israeli government has supported Hamas and did so in the recent attacks, then I will present evidence.

[commonsense]

No one has said Hamas' attack was in any way OK. However, many of us are not interested in Israel's continued destruction of Gaza, idiot.

Would you explain, Gary, what you think Israel should do, now that Hamas has declared itself totally committed to genocide if Israel stops?

That's an incredibly easy question to answer. I think Israel should stop trying to get back at Hamas by blowing the fuck out of random Palestinians. If they want to beat Hamas, then do it another way. What a "Godly" Christian you are. "Turn the other cheek", right?

What other way(s) can you think of?

Education? Indoctrination? That would take up so much time that Hamas could continue its violent activities.

Intermarriage? Same shortcoming.

Sanctions? Blockade? These would invite economic warfare if not actual fighting.

I’m at a loss to come up with a viable way to beat Hamas, but perhaps you or others have additional ideas in mind.

[Impenitent]

suitcase nukes

-Imp

[Gary Childress]

Would you explain, Gary, what you think Israel should do, now that Hamas has declared itself totally committed to genocide if Israel stops?

That's an incredibly easy question to answer. I think Israel should stop trying to get back at Hamas by blowing the fuck out of random Palestinians. If they want to beat Hamas, then do it another way. What a "Godly" Christian you are. "Turn the other cheek", right?

What other way(s) can you think of?

Education? Indoctrination? That would take up so much time that Hamas could continue its violent activities.

Intermarriage? Same shortcoming.

Sanctions? Blockade? These would invite economic warfare if not actual fighting.

I’m at a loss to come up with a viable way to beat Hamas, but perhaps you or others have additional ideas in mind.

As long as you want to "beat" them, they'll want to "beat" you. Try civilized exchange instead.

[commonsense]

That's an incredibly easy question to answer. I think Israel should stop trying to get back at Hamas by blowing the fuck out of random Palestinians. If they want to beat Hamas, then do it another way. What a "Godly" Christian you are. "Turn the other cheek", right?

What other way(s) can you think of?

Education? Indoctrination? That would take up so much time that Hamas could continue its violent activities.

Intermarriage? Same shortcoming.

Sanctions? Blockade? These would invite economic warfare if not actual fighting.

I’m at a loss to come up with a viable way to beat Hamas, but perhaps you or others have additional ideas in mind.

As long as you want to "beat" them, they'll want to "beat" you. Try civilized exchange instead.

Gary, a look at your post above shows that you are the one who posed the beating situation. But I will follow you on your tangent and ask how you would propose to make these two parties engage in civilized exchange?

[Gary Childress]

How you would propose to make these two parties engage in civilized exchange?

Start with asking Hamas for a ceasefire and showing some goodwill. Giving the people in Gaza some clean water to drink might be a good step too. Then maybe everyone will be at the same table.

[accelafine]

How you would propose to make these two parties engage in civilized exchange?

Start with asking Hamas for a ceasefire and showing some goodwill. Giving the people in Gaza some clean water to drink might be a good step too. Then maybe everyone will be at the same table.

There have been 'ceasefires'. Hamas breaks them every time. There was a ceasefire on October 6. Perhaps Gaza should spend its billions on being self sufficient instead of spending them all on weapons and keeping its leaders in the lap of luxury. Then it wouldn't have to depend on the kindness of Israel to keep it supplied with water and electricity. Just a thought.

[Gary Childress]

How you would propose to make these two parties engage in civilized exchange?

Start with asking Hamas for a ceasefire and showing some goodwill. Giving the people in Gaza some clean water to drink might be a good step too. Then maybe everyone will be at the same table.

There have been 'ceasefires'. Hamas breaks them every time. There was a ceasefire on October 6. Perhaps Gaza should spend its billions on being self sufficient instead of spending them all on weapons and keeping its leaders in the lap of luxury. Then it wouldn't have to depend on the kindness of Israel to keep it supplied with water and electricity. Just a thought.

In the meantime, people in Gaza are dying from Israeli bombs and suffocating from economic strangulation. What else can anyone do but try to extend goodwill to a beaten people as much as possible? If we side with Israel's retaliation, then we are siding with a powerful state that is on many levels based on an apartheid system. If there is a right answer to this dilemma, then I don't know what it is.