The Truth Is Self-Evident*

[simplicity]

That's just stupid, so you may as well learn to take it better when people tell you that.

Could it possibly be that you do not understand, or do you just like telling people that what they write is, "stupid?"

How old are you?

If it wasn't simple enough for me to understand it also wasn't true.

True enough.

[simplicity]

People ALWAYS know that they're being bullshi!tted.

I don't think that's true, in any normal sense of the word know. As far as I can see Bullshiting people is very effective and people fall for PR, advertising, political campaigns, guilt trips, fads, fashion, memes that are based on bullshit.
That's the world I live in. I don't know what you experience, but I see people falling for lies all over the place.

Just because they accept it doesn't mean they believe it.

Well, you keep asserting people know. I see them buying crap, joining trends, voting for liars and idiots. Companies spend enormous sums on making bullshit related to their businesses, and they would definitely stop if that wasn't working. So, I don't really know what you're talking about. How do you know that everyone recognizes bullshit?

Everybody has to decide who much they are going to put up with the bs and at what level they can participate in it. How would it be possible not to understand? You think anybody believes advertising? politicians? bankers/Wall Street? and all the rest? People get it, they just don't want to live in the gutter.

Well, if everyone can see through bullshit, then it doesn't really matter how well the doctors commmunicate. The patients can say...hey that's BS. I want a different drug, for example.

Sure it does. It is the physician's responsibility to educate the patient BUT it is the patient's responsibility to research and come back with questions and expect contextual explanation so you can eventually reach a prudent conclusion and pathways forward. That's how it should work.

EVERYBODY knows this health care system is horribly corrupt...it IS self-evident.

Well, if everybody knows, there's no need to say it. It's like me starting a thread telling people they need to breathe.

Poor argument.

OH, and by the way. You didn't respond to most of the points I made. You simply reiterated your position.

Just stick to one or two things you wish to discuss. Too much work otherwise.

[Atla]

Please elaborate.

There were "truths" that I originally believed in, to the point that it never even occured to me to question them. I mean they were so basic, and inherent in everything, that I didn't even really perceive them, so it wasn't even possible for me to question them. They were that self-evident.

And a lot of meditation and other reflection showed them wrong. I really didn't see that coming.

As you deepen your meditation, you will begin to see the true nature of all kinds of things. The first idea to keep in mind is we are talking about two entirely different ways of "thinking." The first is the relative [intellectual], the other is the Absolute. This is where most Zen students get confused because [they go back and forth].

In the intellectual world, ALL things come and go. This includes truths [as they are built upon things coming and going, as well]. When I was saying that the truth is self-evident, what I meant is that most people can experience truth immediately before their thinking mind kicks-in. Sort of how initial impressions can be uncannily accurate.

There are an unlimited number of truths out there that we take for granted because we do not have the time nor the capacity to evaluate them. This does not mean that we necessarily accept them Upon consideration, we might reject them out of hand. This is not what I am talking about though. Again, what I am referring to is the time that lies between when the stimulus is perceived but before the thinking mind has the opportunity to change our perceived reality into our personal reality. This is where the truth is self-evident.

Nonsense. What you are describing is merely intuition, and intuition sometimes fails.

And that is NOT what the relative and the Absolute mean. What you've done is what I'd call a self-deception, where you convinced yourself that you can encounter some kind of Absolute nature in meditation.

You didn't figure out that you aren't supposed to take the Zen practice of experiencing "true reality" too seriously? That's ultimately just a gimmick.

[Flannel Jesus]

Sure it does. It is the physician's responsibility to educate the patient BUT it is the patient's responsibility to research and come back with questions and expect contextual explanation so you can eventually reach a prudent conclusion and pathways forward. That's how it should work.

Sounds like an awful lot of work for something that's self evidently true.

[Iwannaplato]

Just because they accept it doesn't mean they believe it.

So, you accept that they buy the products, they take on the styles, they spout the memes, they vote for the candidates, they tell their friends X is good or cool, but they don't believe. Sure, possible. And your evidence. So far I have seen assertions that people know it's all bullshit. Can you justify your position? Much of this is optional. Yes, we have to earn a living and that can entail putting up with bullshit. But many thinks, all the product shopping and fads and fashion...most of that is utterly optional. But they flood those markets. They buy the new 'cooler' phone rather than saving money, on bullshit grounds. They rush out to purchase all sorts of products that will make them successful, sexy, cool....and they don't have to. And advertising bullshit directly leads to these fads and shopping sprees. Industry knows it works. No one HAS TO BUY 200 dollar sunglasses. But they do.

YOu seemed to understand this before...

Grow the fuck up people. Stop wasting your money on things you cannot afford and spend time with your children. Maybe then your kids will make a better life of it then what you people are doing...

They spend directly in relation to bullshit advertising and what people tell them about their products.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Everybody has to decide who much they are going to put up with the bs and at what level they can participate in it. How would it be possible not to understand?

Perhaps you could stop the implicitly insulting appeals to incredulity and actually justify your assertions.
absolutely.

You think anybody believes advertising?

They go out and buy stuff that they don't need based on advertising and the bullshit of peers that the advertising and influencer spout. Not a doubt in my mind that many, many people do this. And you can see the waves of new fashion flow over the streets and bodies. And they could save their money or not pay outrageous prices for brand clothes - and one example amongst many types of products - and buy knockoffs and cheaper good of the same quality, but they don't. They don't have to put up with this bullshit, they could ignore it. And your evidence?

politicians?

Sure, there are plenty of passionate citizens who exhort others to vote for X. This is at all levels of government. They often see the bs of the politicians who have different values than them, but often not their own. I see nothing to indicate that everyone knows it's all bullshit. Yes, many people distrust politicians in general. But many whole heartedly support their candidates. We have passionate support of both Trump and Hilary, for example. And yes, others were more cynical.

bankers/Wall Street?

They're less well liked in a more general way. On the other hand, they pretty much just do their shit and it is shit. However they are pretty silent. They do their horrible things.

and all the rest? People get it, they just don't want to live in the gutter.

There are certainly people who have to make compromises, but that does not explain many other patterns out there that do not fit your universal assertion.

Well, if everyone can see through bullshit, then it doesn't really matter how well the doctors commmunicate. The patients can say...hey that's BS. I want a different drug, for example.

Sure it does. It is the physician's responsibility to educate the patient BUT it is the patient's responsibility to research and come back with questions and expect contextual explanation so you can eventually reach a prudent conclusion and pathways forward. That's how it should work.

You didn't respond to my point. If they can see through the bullshit then they know they are being bullshitted. And can ask questions until they sense they are not being bullshitted by the doctors. But most don't do this. And while on the one hand you tell us that everyone sees through bullshit, while elsewhere saying doctors should prioritize at the top good and open communication. Well, if people can see through the bullshit, then they don't need the doctors to be good communicators, they can just keep nagging until the doctor says something that doesn't smell of bullshit. Do you know how much the sales of drugs go up when they are advertised in different media? Which is why this was long illegal, to advertise prescription drugs. Then it was legal. It works, people ASK for those drugs. So, the advertising pays for itself and more.

EVERYBODY knows this health care system is horribly corrupt...it IS self-evident.

Well, if everybody knows, there's no need to say it. It's like me starting a thread telling people they need to breathe.

Poor argument.

You haven't made ANY argument. You haven't justified your assertions. You just keep repeating them. Do you understand what an argument is or what justification is?

OH, and by the way. You didn't respond to most of the points I made. You simply reiterated your position.

Just stick to one or two things you wish to discuss. Too much work otherwise.

You didn't respond to any of the objections I made, none. You could have picked one and rebutted. Justified your position. What you keep doing is repeating your assertions.

[simplicity]

There were "truths" that I originally believed in, to the point that it never even occured to me to question them. I mean they were so basic, and inherent in everything, that I didn't even really perceive them, so it wasn't even possible for me to question them. They were that self-evident.

And a lot of meditation and other reflection showed them wrong. I really didn't see that coming.

As you deepen your meditation, you will begin to see the true nature of all kinds of things. The first idea to keep in mind is we are talking about two entirely different ways of "thinking." The first is the relative [intellectual], the other is the Absolute. This is where most Zen students get confused because [they go back and forth].

In the intellectual world, ALL things come and go. This includes truths [as they are built upon things coming and going, as well]. When I was saying that the truth is self-evident, what I meant is that most people can experience truth immediately before their thinking mind kicks-in. Sort of how initial impressions can be uncannily accurate.

There are an unlimited number of truths out there that we take for granted because we do not have the time nor the capacity to evaluate them. This does not mean that we necessarily accept them Upon consideration, we might reject them out of hand. This is not what I am talking about though. Again, what I am referring to is the time that lies between when the stimulus is perceived but before the thinking mind has the opportunity to change our perceived reality into our personal reality. This is where the truth is self-evident.

Nonsense. What you are describing is merely intuition, and intuition sometimes fails.

And that is NOT what the relative and the Absolute mean. What you've done is what I'd call a self-deception, where you convinced yourself that you can encounter some kind of Absolute nature in meditation.

You didn't figure out that you aren't supposed to take the Zen practice of experiencing "true reality" too seriously? That's ultimately just a gimmick.

Like I suggested before, you need to speak to a teacher.

[simplicity]

Just because they accept it doesn't mean they believe it.

So, you accept that they buy the products, they take on the styles, they spout the memes, they vote for the candidates, they tell their friends X is good or cool, but they don't believe. Sure, possible. And your evidence.

Are you serious? Do you really believe that everybody REALLY believes they are "better" because they buy so and so house or drive so and so car? Why do you believe that half the Western world is on anti-depressants? Nobody really believes this. You'd have to be a complete fool to believe such non-sense.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Nobody does, but what's that have to do with what we are talking about?

Well, if everyone can see through bullshit, then it doesn't really matter how well the doctors commmunicate. The patients can say...hey that's BS. I want a different drug, for example.

Sure it does. It is the physician's responsibility to educate the patient BUT it is the patient's responsibility to research and come back with questions and expect contextual explanations so you can eventually reach a prudent conclusion and pathways forward. That's how it should work.

Well, if people can see through the bullshit, then they don't need the doctors to be good communicators, they can just keep nagging until the doctor says something that doesn't smell of bullshit.

The primary purpose of consulting with the physician is to obtain information. Detecting the validity of the information is another matter.

OH, and by the way. You didn't respond to most of the points I made. You simply reiterated your position.

Just stick to one or two things you wish to discuss. Too much work otherwise.

You didn't respond to any of the objections I made, none. You could have picked one and rebutted. Justified your position. What you keep doing is repeating your assertions.

Make one objection and I'll respond.

[Atla]

As you deepen your meditation, you will begin to see the true nature of all kinds of things. The first idea to keep in mind is we are talking about two entirely different ways of "thinking." The first is the relative [intellectual], the other is the Absolute. This is where most Zen students get confused because [they go back and forth].

In the intellectual world, ALL things come and go. This includes truths [as they are built upon things coming and going, as well]. When I was saying that the truth is self-evident, what I meant is that most people can experience truth immediately before their thinking mind kicks-in. Sort of how initial impressions can be uncannily accurate.

There are an unlimited number of truths out there that we take for granted because we do not have the time nor the capacity to evaluate them. This does not mean that we necessarily accept them Upon consideration, we might reject them out of hand. This is not what I am talking about though. Again, what I am referring to is the time that lies between when the stimulus is perceived but before the thinking mind has the opportunity to change our perceived reality into our personal reality. This is where the truth is self-evident.

Nonsense. What you are describing is merely intuition, and intuition sometimes fails.

And that is NOT what the relative and the Absolute mean. What you've done is what I'd call a self-deception, where you convinced yourself that you can encounter some kind of Absolute nature in meditation.

You didn't figure out that you aren't supposed to take the Zen practice of experiencing "true reality" too seriously? That's ultimately just a gimmick.

Like I suggested before, you need to speak to a teacher.

It is "self-evident" that we shouldn't un-critically accept the teachings of any philosophy.

[Iwannaplato]

Are you serious? Do you really believe that everybody REALLY believes they are "better" because they buy so and so house or drive so and so car?

1) You are the person asserting that everyone can see all the bullshit. I am saying that is not true. If I say that that is not true it does not mean I am asserting that everyone falls for bullshit. Do you understand? I am saying that many do. Because they spend their money on it, over and over. And advertising works, enough for companies to do this. Some things in life we have to do, even if we think it is BS. But many things are optional. We don't have to buy brand clothing. But millions do, and in response to advertising that couples those products with fitting in, being cool and so on.

Why do you believe that half the Western world is on anti-depressants? Nobody really believes this.

You're skipping steps. You don't explain here why you think that rebuts my point. It seems like because you are saying people don't GET HAPPY buying these products, they aren't falling for the bs. But 1) you don't make the argument clear and 2) they blame themselves when the products and things they do that they think they are supposed to don't work. 3) Many people are not on anti-depressants.

You'd have to be a complete fool to believe such non-sense.

You'd have to be a complete ass not to know this is 1) an insult that does not add any substance to your non-argument. 2) and implicit appeal to incredulity.

Sure it does. It is the physician's responsibility to educate the patient BUT it is the patient's responsibility to research and come back with questions and expect contextual explanations so you can eventually reach a prudent conclusion and pathways forward. That's how it should work.

Well, if people can see through the bullshit, then they don't need the doctors to be good communicators, they can just keep nagging until the doctor says something that doesn't smell of bullshit.

The primary purpose of consulting with the physician is to obtain information. Detecting the validity of the information is another matter.

Not a reponse to the point I was making. You just repeated your position without interacting with what I wrote.

OH, and by the way. You didn't respond to most of the points I made. You simply reiterated your position.

Just stick to one or two things you wish to discuss. Too much work otherwise.

You didn't respond to any of the objections I made, none. You could have picked one and rebutted. Justified your position. What you keep doing is repeating your assertions.

Make one objection and I'll respond.

I'm beginning to suspect now, that you are either a troll or someone who doesn't know the basics in arguing for something, let alone any philosophy at all. I made a number of objections which can be seen in any of my responses to you. If you can't find them, find someone in your life you trust who can look at the posts and help you.

If you are a troll, well, it's sort of nicely done. You flame but implicitly. Instead of making stupid arguments, you avoid arguments and just repeat your opinions.

It's a slightly subtler style.

[simplicity]

Nonsense. What you are describing is merely intuition, and intuition sometimes fails.

And that is NOT what the relative and the Absolute mean. What you've done is what I'd call a self-deception, where you convinced yourself that you can encounter some kind of Absolute nature in meditation.

You didn't figure out that you aren't supposed to take the Zen practice of experiencing "true reality" too seriously? That's ultimately just a gimmick.

Like I suggested before, you need to speak to a teacher.

It is "self-evident" that we shouldn't un-critically accept the teachings of any philosophy.

That's one of the most important lessons The Buddha taught.

[simplicity]

Are you serious? Do you really believe that everybody REALLY believes they are "better" because they buy so and so house or drive so and so car?

1) You are the person asserting that everyone can see all the bullshit. I am saying that is not true. If I say that that is not true it does not mean I am asserting that everyone falls for bullshit. Do you understand? I am saying that many do. Because they spend their money on it, over and over. And advertising works, enough for companies to do this. Some things in life we have to do, even if we think it is BS. But many things are optional. We don't have to buy brand clothing. But millions do, and in response to advertising that couples those products with fitting in, being cool and so on.

Why do you believe that half the Western world is on anti-depressants? Nobody really believes this.

You're skipping steps. You don't explain here why you think that rebuts my point. It seems like because you are saying people don't GET HAPPY buying these products, they aren't falling for the bs. But 1) you don't make the argument clear and 2) they blame themselves when the products and things they do that they think they are supposed to don't work. 3) Many people are not on anti-depressants.

You'd have to be a complete fool to believe such non-sense.

You'd have to be a complete ass not to know this is 1) an insult that does not add any substance to your non-argument. 2) and implicit appeal to incredulity.

Sure it does. It is the physician's responsibility to educate the patient BUT it is the patient's responsibility to research and come back with questions and expect contextual explanations so you can eventually reach a prudent conclusion and pathways forward. That's how it should work.

Well, if people can see through the bullshit, then they don't need the doctors to be good communicators, they can just keep nagging until the doctor says something that doesn't smell of bullshit.

The primary purpose of consulting with the physician is to obtain information. Detecting the validity of the information is another matter.

Not a reponse to the point I was making. You just repeated your position without interacting with what I wrote.

OH, and by the way. You didn't respond to most of the points I made. You simply reiterated your position.

Just stick to one or two things you wish to discuss. Too much work otherwise.

You didn't respond to any of the objections I made, none. You could have picked one and rebutted. Justified your position. What you keep doing is repeating your assertions.

Make one objection and I'll respond.

I'm beginning to suspect now, that you are either a troll or someone who doesn't know the basics in arguing for something, let alone any philosophy at all. I made a number of objections which can be seen in any of my responses to you. If you can't find them, find someone in your life you trust who can look at the posts and help you.

If you are a troll, well, it's sort of nicely done. You flame but implicitly. Instead of making stupid arguments, you avoid arguments and just repeat your opinions.

It's a slightly subtler style.

Well, you've really honed your people skills to a fine edge. Good luck.

[Atla]

That's one of the most important lessons The Buddha taught.

Yes. Here's another important lesson: everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

[simplicity]

That's one of the most important lessons The Buddha taught.

Yes. Here's another important lesson: everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

What does that mean?

[Atla]

it's complicated

[simplicity]

it's complicated

Attempting to 'figure it out' makes it complicated [and is directly proportional to its deviation from the truth].

When you break it down to its essence, the truth of the matter is ALWAYS as simple as it gets [by definition].