Moral Compass

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Moral Compass

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Janoah wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:15 amI was born into a non-religious family, and the Bible was not in my family, because in the USSR where I lived, in principle there were no religious books for sale. Marxism was taught in educational institutions, and I liked it, I believed in socialism. But at some stage I had a question: is there something the main in life, and if so, what? And the answer came to me that the main is - not to lie to yourself, and the rest is consequences. I was interested to know if there are worldview systems that have such an answer. At this time, I received a Bible from a Christian friend.The Christian Bible, as usual, contained the “Old Testament” and the Gospels together. I started reading the Gospels, maybe my answer is there.
I would suggest examining the Bhagavad-Gita and Vedanta generally. I think you will find that Vedanta offers a far more complete picture of what religious and spiritual life is. It allows for a wide range of different relationships to the Divine. For that reason it can be extremely tolerant of each religious path since, in its view, the end of all religious process is the same.

Note that what I have just said -- the end of all religious process is the same -- is an utterly intolerable idea in both Judaism and Christianity. Judaism especially defines itself through absolute separation from *the others* (the Nations) and the terrifying god-concept known as HaShem says that if you deviate away from the path established, he will cut you down in the most terrifying ways.

It is rather hard to *love* such a figure and, I would go further, it is a sign of sickness to achieve a 'love' of such a figure. It reminds me a bit of how 1984 ends.
I was interested to know if there are worldview systems that have such an answer.
There most certainly are. But we'd have to examine what is meant, and what you mean, by answer.

To become a practicing devoted Muslim provides *an answer* since everything is offered through it. Community, ethical program, a life-plan including dedicated marriage, family life, and a larger service to the community. If you are inclined to large, defining existential battles it can off a frame for that.

Judaism is also a totalizing system and it *answers all questions*.

Catholicism and Christianity offer the same.

Answers abound. But each system is rather possessive. It provides an answer, certainly, but it also demands shutting yourself off from other answering-systems.

What interests me is that you seem to hold this as valuable: "And the answer came to me that the main is - not to lie to yourself, and the rest is consequences".

It can be said, with some truth I think, that all of our Stories are in a way lies that refer to *truths*.

The real area of lying, according to my own views, occurs at the most profound inner level. In post-religious Modernity, and we are in post-religious Modernity, it might be truer overall that the inner world is psychological. That is, dealing with the very inner structure of what we are. If *god* or *divinity* is to be found it is inside of us, or a part of our natural processes. The route of turning inward thus sort of dovetails with meditation practices, or the inner work of one's internal psychic world (dreams, etc.)
seeds
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Re: Moral Compass

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:21 pm I would suggest examining the Bhagavad-Gita and Vedanta generally. I think you will find that Vedanta offers a far more complete picture of what religious and spiritual life is. It allows for a wide range of different relationships to the Divine. For that reason it can be extremely tolerant of each religious path since, in its view, the end of all religious process is the same.
And what, according to Vedanta, would that same ending to all religious process be?
_______
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

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Dontaskme wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:28 am The word ''eternal'' is an oxymoron.
It's not. But you can use the mathematical term "infinite" in its place, if you prefer.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Moral Compass

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seeds wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:48 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:21 pm I would suggest examining the Bhagavad-Gita and Vedanta generally. I think you will find that Vedanta offers a far more complete picture of what religious and spiritual life is. It allows for a wide range of different relationships to the Divine. For that reason it can be extremely tolerant of each religious path since, in its view, the end of all religious process is the same.
And what, according to Vedanta, would that same ending to all religious process be?
_______
Generally, as evolution from one situation or state of consciousness to *higher* or perhaps the word is maturer levels of consciousness.

They say that this birth, this body, this reality is one among any number. They say we can both ascend and descend from this level by our choices.

The final end? It varies with different Vedic descriptions. But it is always “return to godhead” in one form or another.
seeds
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Re: Moral Compass

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Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:20 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:48 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:21 pm I would suggest examining the Bhagavad-Gita and Vedanta generally. I think you will find that Vedanta offers a far more complete picture of what religious and spiritual life is. It allows for a wide range of different relationships to the Divine. For that reason it can be extremely tolerant of each religious path since, in its view, the end of all religious process is the same.
And what, according to Vedanta, would that same ending to all religious process be?
_______
Generally, as evolution from one situation or state of consciousness to *higher* or perhaps the word is maturer levels of consciousness.

They say that this birth, this body, this reality is one among any number. They say we can both ascend and descend from this level by our choices.

The final end? It varies with different Vedic descriptions. But it is always “return to godhead” in one form or another.
And what does Vedanta suggest that the "godhead" consists of?
_______
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Dontaskme
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Re: Moral Compass

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:13 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:28 am The word ''eternal'' is an oxymoron.
It's not. But you can use the mathematical term "infinite" in its place, if you prefer.
Ok, are you who goes by the name of IC an infinite being, or a finite being? OR, no being at all, just simply infinity itself. Have you who goes by the name of IC ever experienced life infinitely forever eternal?

Having found one's self living in infinity, one's place is always at the centre of the universe.

Infinity is an oxymoron. Are you God, or is God you?

Are you in the universe or is the universe in you?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

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Dontaskme wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:55 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:13 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:28 am The word ''eternal'' is an oxymoron.
It's not. But you can use the mathematical term "infinite" in its place, if you prefer.
Ok, are you who goes by the name of IC...
I'm sorry, DAM...this thing that you call "games playing," and seem to enjoy so much, I just call "trolling," ...and boring. I can't be bothered with your comments, because there's not enough coherence in them to permit any reasoned response.

You may as well not bother. But please yourself, of course. I don't think anybody's paying attention.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Moral Compass

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:23 pm I don't think anybody's paying attention.
I agree. You see, IC you do know your non-duality. 😂
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Moral Compass

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seeds wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:34 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:20 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 4:48 pm
And what, according to Vedanta, would that same ending to all religious process be?
_______
Generally, as evolution from one situation or state of consciousness to *higher* or perhaps the word is maturer levels of consciousness.

They say that this birth, this body, this reality is one among any number. They say we can both ascend and descend from this level by our choices.

The final end? It varies with different Vedic descriptions. But it is always “return to godhead” in one form or another.
And what does Vedanta suggest that the "godhead" consists of?
_______
Either a giant teddy bear ... or everything that cannot be conceived in language or concept.
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:22 am
Janoah wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:15 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:10 am
That is how I make my moral decisions. How do you do it?
I have already mentioned my moral compass - to follow my conscience.
That would be fine, if your conscience is always in perfect order.
A person, in principle, cannot be ideal, but he can strive for ideal.


***So you don't observe Torah, as any part of that?***

I try to keep the Torah because I agree with it.
For, the first thing is to follow conscience,
***Not according to Scripture. For in Scripture, we are taught, “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" (The Tanahk, Jeremiah 17:9) And again, in Ecclesiastes, we read, "Indeed, there is not a righteous person on earth who does good and does not ever sin." (Ecc.7:20) And again, Moses charges the people, in Deuteronomy 12:8 “You shall not do at all what we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes." We can find many more such passages. According, then, to Scripture, the judgments of men's consciences are often not trustworthy, and even lead them to do evil. ***

I have already said that a person cannot be ideal, but he can strive for ideal. And unconscionable adherence to something written is unconscionable..
"and gladness for the upright in heart" (Psalm 97)
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:27 am
Janoah wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:25 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:55 pm
All matter is contingent.
Matter follows natural Law, and this is understandable if you don’t confuse yourself.
But we could just have asked Torah. For in Genesis, the very first verse, it tells us, "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth."
I have already said that the Torah should be understood based on the proof of science, the Torah is not a physics textbook.
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

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nemos wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 6:33 am
Janoah wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 1:11 am ... But if you return to the sinful Earth, is it clear that love can be conscienceless?
For example, sadism is also a kind of "love", for violence and cruelty.
How would you define a conscience, and why do some have it and some might not, even the same sadists you mentioned?
Following your conscience is speaks the truth in his heart.
All normal people have a conscience, but not everyone and do not always strive to follow it.


***One might as well ask if there can be a conscience without "love".***

There is both love and conscience. The question is, what is the cause, what is the consequence? Love without following conscience is unconscionable.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Immanuel Can »

Janoah wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:27 am
Janoah wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 12:25 am
Matter follows natural Law, and this is understandable if you don’t confuse yourself.
But we could just have asked Torah. For in Genesis, the very first verse, it tells us, "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth."
I have already said that the Torah should be understood based on the proof of science, the Torah is not a physics textbook.
However, in this case, Torah is clearly as right as any science textbook you can find today. Matter is not eternal: it's created, and subject to entropy. And that's a scientific fact, not only a belief of the Torah.
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Janoah
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Re: Moral Compass

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Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:39 pm
Janoah wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:44 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:27 am

But we could just have asked Torah. For in Genesis, the very first verse, it tells us, "In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth."
I have already said that the Torah should be understood based on the proof of science, the Torah is not a physics textbook.
Matter is not eternal: it's created,

After all, we have already talked about this several times, why repeat it again, there is no proof yet that matter is created from nothing. And in the Big Bang, something that already existed exploded.
And moreover, it is worth basing your worldview on something more stable than on the mythical and unproven ex nihilo.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Moral Compass

Post by Immanuel Can »

Janoah wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:31 pm ...in the Big Bang, something that already existed exploded.
What created matter itself, including the matter you say created the explosion? Matter is contingent and entropic: scientifically, we can see that it's not eternal. It had to have a beginning.

So how did matter itself get its start?
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