One of the primary beliefs in eastern philosophy/Indian philosophy
is that of Maya... Illusion... that the world is an illusion and the goal
is to break free of that illusion.... the point of existence is to
return to that which is permanent... our lives are an illusion....
and we must return to that which is permanent... many religions
revolve around this point... that we must find salvation in finding
the permanent... to return to god as in western religion and in
returning to the source of everything in which we are no longer
being reborn again and again in the Indian religions/philosophy....
the Buddha said that everything in our consciousness is about
suffering.. we suffer and suffer and suffer and the human goal
is to end this ongoing suffering...which is being reborn...
we suffer because we age and we suffer as we get disease and we suffer
in that we die...... (I have argued against this point before)
it seems to me that there are but two aspects of existence..
that of matter and that of consciousness... we have matter, which
as Einstein pointed out is energy... matter is energy... and the amount
of matter/energy never changes in the universe.. it can be converted,
but not destroyed...
and we have the second part of the equation, that of consciousness...
we have, all of us, consciousness... but we know less about consciousness
than we do about matter and energy... and we, at the same time,
give more credit to consciousness and less credit to it... and we
fail to see consciousness for what it is....
let me give an example of this.... the mathematical equation,
1 + 1 = 2... we have one apple and we have another apple..
think about those two apples sitting on your desk, or in my case,
on my kitchen table... we have one apple sitting there
and we have another apple sitting inches away... you would say,
we have two apples... but that would be wrong... think about
the equation itself... 1 + 1 = 2.... the two words we should be focused
on is the plus sign, + and the equal sign, = ....
there is no logical mathematical connection between the two apples...
in other words, what connects the two apples mathematically?
we know that they are from the same family, apples, ok, but we
have one apple and we have another apple, the two apples are matter/energy,
but what role does consciousness play in this?
The role of consciousness is in making the connection between
apple one and apple two... the + sign... that is consciousness...
there is no connection between the two apples otherwise outside of
consciousness... think about the equal sign, = what is that?
that is consciousness connecting two separate apples...
one might say, but Kropotkin, 1 + 1 = 2 ... no, that is not true...
we mentally, with our consciousness connects the apples..
they have no connection outside of our consciousness....
we connect them by the + sign and the = sign...
the plus sign is a connection by our consciousness
and the = sign is a connection made by our consciousness..
it doesn't actually appear in real life... what we see is one apple
and then we see another apple and there is no connection unless
we mentally/consciously make that connection....
the universe is made up of matter/energy and within our consciousness,
we organize that matter/energy... the connection in the universe between
objects is done within consciousness... otherwise what we see are
just random objects and events... and any connection between any
two objects or events is done mentally with our consciousness...
so, we have matter/energy, and we have consciousness... it is the consciousness
that makes the connection between matter and other matter, and matter
and energy.... there is no connection between any two objects until
it is done mentally/consciously...
and now we can introduce the next step... that of our indoctrinations..
we have isms and ideologies that we are indoctrinated with from the
very beginning of our existence... and among the indoctrinations,
or the education we receive is the many ism's we have...
so, the indoctrination of god, of state, of American exceptionalism,
of the superiority of whites, are also done as the mental or consciousness
of making connections that only exists because we have mentally made them....
In fact, the idea of America is a mental one, a connection that isn't there...
and part of the problem is that we make the mistake of thinking of those
mental idea's, those connections as being real...the idea of nations is
a mental one, not a physical one...as reality, nations, states,
cities are all mental connections.. not physical connections..
even the idea of human beings is a mental one, constructed by
our consciousness...
human beings as such don't exists... it is just a physical/material object...
and we identify as human beings due to our consciousness, our indoctrinations....
think about it... do dogs think of themselves as dogs? are they aware of
being separate, independent, physical objects? for a dog to think of itself
as a dog, requires a consciousness that they don't have...
human beings only see themselves as human beings by making
mental connections, that is really just an indoctrination... a
mental construct...in fact, practically everything we think about
being human is just a mental construct, a consciousness, an
indoctrination/education....
so if everything is a mental construct, an indoctrination/education,
then we really approach the question... we have matter/energy
and we have our consciousness... which organizes that matter/energy
into categories...which is done by ideologies/ism's/ indoctrinations....
we have the eastern word, Maya.. which is illusion... as in the sense of
'''appearance''... so what do we actually have here?
we have matter/energy.. and we have consciousness that defines
and organizes our understanding of that matter/energy by
ideologies, ism's, indoctrinations, education....
can we understand the matter/energy in the universe without
consciousness? I don't see how....
and as I like to say, now what?
Kropotkin
consciousness, matter and you
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
so we have matter/energy... which is forever.. it cannot be added to,
or reduced.. the amount of matter/energy in the universe remains the same,
no matter what....
and we have consciousness which organizes and defines the matter/energy
we see, hear, touch, smell, or taste in the universe according to our
education and indoctrinations....
is the universe good or evil? that depends on your indoctrinations/education...
so, in another brick in the wall... we have Kant...
and his three questions, ''what am I to do?" "what can I know?"
"what can I believe in?"
how do we think about Kant's question given our understanding
matter/energy and consciousness....
"what am I to do?"... that answer comes from our indoctrinations/
education.... and we return to an earlier thread of mine...
where I wonder about the history of consciousness...
the three ages of human beings as it were....
we have the initial stage of human beings and thinking..
which I called the magical stage... we don't understand
cause and effect.. we think like a child does.. if a child is
playing and suddenly a chair appears next to them, they
give it no thought.. they make no connections as to how
that chair got there.. it just magically appeared and that is
good enough for the child... they don't need to know how
nor do they care... there is no such thing as cause and effect
with young children... this thinking was how human beings
thought for centuries... while we went from animal to becoming
animal/human... the name for this time period is the hunter/gatherer
stage....where we followed the food around...
the next step was pastoral... in which we followed the food around,
but we organized that food... we found the cows or reindeer and
put them into herds to follow around... and in this, we begin to see
the next phase of existence, where we begin to see cause and effect...
it is no longer about magical thinking... we begin the transition
to theological thinking...a child would never think about making
sacrifices to create some sort of desired goal... but in the new way of
thinking, the theological thinking begins to think, if I do this, I will
get rewarded by that...that is attempting to influence or change,
cause and effect...theological thinking...I can appease god by doing
this and he will reward me with that...cause and effect...
the next stage is the creation of agriculture and cities... where
we no longer follow the food, we bring the food to us and we plant
crops to help feed us... and this requires us to have cities...
what came first, the agriculture or the cities? for me, I think
that agriculture came first... I may be easily wrong here... but
that is my guess....and we come to a fully realized vision of
theological matters... we can now see how cause and effect
works and we try to influence god into rewarding us for our
sacrifices... the prior magical thinking is mostly gone...
but there is conflict between the two stages, the pastoral
and the agricultural stage... this transformation between the two
was the direct cause of such thinkers as the Buddha and Confucious
and Socrates... all of whom operated around the same time period...
and the interesting thing here that the answer for all three,
was a return to the past... not one of them advocated for a novel
approach to the society that was changing right before their eyes...
each of them, advocated for a return to the past beliefs,
and thoughts... each of them was fighting for rearguard actions
against their own modernity/times... each of them found the solutions
to the problems they faced by looking to the past, not the future....
and what of today? we are facing another dramatic shift with
our society/state/civilization... we are faced with a dramatically
changing world, a world transforming from one type of society
and world.... so to review, we went from a magical thinking world
to a theological thinking world, so what is next? what is the post-theological
world? again, we think in terms of cause and effect... what does the
post-theological world look like in terms of cause and effect?
the shift I refer to has been in effect for 500 years.. going from
the theological world of the Medieval age to the scientific world
of today... where cause and effect is not found in magical thinking
or in god, but in natural causes and effects...
a tree falls down and kills three... we now seek that cause in
how trees act and under what conditions they face as tree's..
not in magical thinking, it just happened and not in theological
thinking, god caused this or Karma or sin....
but physical matters operate within physical laws of gravity,
entropy, thermodynamics, evolution and just as importantly,
we now exist within a universe where chance and randomness
operates... the theory of evolution is really a theory of how
we came to be in a random way, where chance played a role
in the creation of human beings...
and in this universe of chance and randomness, we have
no recourse to prayer or sacrifices to a god to influence,
cause and effects... random events, event impacted by chance,
dominate our lives... we just don't see that yet... and we often
mistake this random nature to a god we can't see, to a god
that can't/won't hear our desperate pleas of being saved...
what if, what if there were no god, just chance and randomness
that impacts our lives. I was born with a severe hearing loss due
to chance, a random event... which has impacted my life every single
day, indeed every single minute of my existence....
what role does cause and effect play when much of our existence
has a random nature to it?
Kropotkin
or reduced.. the amount of matter/energy in the universe remains the same,
no matter what....
and we have consciousness which organizes and defines the matter/energy
we see, hear, touch, smell, or taste in the universe according to our
education and indoctrinations....
is the universe good or evil? that depends on your indoctrinations/education...
so, in another brick in the wall... we have Kant...
and his three questions, ''what am I to do?" "what can I know?"
"what can I believe in?"
how do we think about Kant's question given our understanding
matter/energy and consciousness....
"what am I to do?"... that answer comes from our indoctrinations/
education.... and we return to an earlier thread of mine...
where I wonder about the history of consciousness...
the three ages of human beings as it were....
we have the initial stage of human beings and thinking..
which I called the magical stage... we don't understand
cause and effect.. we think like a child does.. if a child is
playing and suddenly a chair appears next to them, they
give it no thought.. they make no connections as to how
that chair got there.. it just magically appeared and that is
good enough for the child... they don't need to know how
nor do they care... there is no such thing as cause and effect
with young children... this thinking was how human beings
thought for centuries... while we went from animal to becoming
animal/human... the name for this time period is the hunter/gatherer
stage....where we followed the food around...
the next step was pastoral... in which we followed the food around,
but we organized that food... we found the cows or reindeer and
put them into herds to follow around... and in this, we begin to see
the next phase of existence, where we begin to see cause and effect...
it is no longer about magical thinking... we begin the transition
to theological thinking...a child would never think about making
sacrifices to create some sort of desired goal... but in the new way of
thinking, the theological thinking begins to think, if I do this, I will
get rewarded by that...that is attempting to influence or change,
cause and effect...theological thinking...I can appease god by doing
this and he will reward me with that...cause and effect...
the next stage is the creation of agriculture and cities... where
we no longer follow the food, we bring the food to us and we plant
crops to help feed us... and this requires us to have cities...
what came first, the agriculture or the cities? for me, I think
that agriculture came first... I may be easily wrong here... but
that is my guess....and we come to a fully realized vision of
theological matters... we can now see how cause and effect
works and we try to influence god into rewarding us for our
sacrifices... the prior magical thinking is mostly gone...
but there is conflict between the two stages, the pastoral
and the agricultural stage... this transformation between the two
was the direct cause of such thinkers as the Buddha and Confucious
and Socrates... all of whom operated around the same time period...
and the interesting thing here that the answer for all three,
was a return to the past... not one of them advocated for a novel
approach to the society that was changing right before their eyes...
each of them, advocated for a return to the past beliefs,
and thoughts... each of them was fighting for rearguard actions
against their own modernity/times... each of them found the solutions
to the problems they faced by looking to the past, not the future....
and what of today? we are facing another dramatic shift with
our society/state/civilization... we are faced with a dramatically
changing world, a world transforming from one type of society
and world.... so to review, we went from a magical thinking world
to a theological thinking world, so what is next? what is the post-theological
world? again, we think in terms of cause and effect... what does the
post-theological world look like in terms of cause and effect?
the shift I refer to has been in effect for 500 years.. going from
the theological world of the Medieval age to the scientific world
of today... where cause and effect is not found in magical thinking
or in god, but in natural causes and effects...
a tree falls down and kills three... we now seek that cause in
how trees act and under what conditions they face as tree's..
not in magical thinking, it just happened and not in theological
thinking, god caused this or Karma or sin....
but physical matters operate within physical laws of gravity,
entropy, thermodynamics, evolution and just as importantly,
we now exist within a universe where chance and randomness
operates... the theory of evolution is really a theory of how
we came to be in a random way, where chance played a role
in the creation of human beings...
and in this universe of chance and randomness, we have
no recourse to prayer or sacrifices to a god to influence,
cause and effects... random events, event impacted by chance,
dominate our lives... we just don't see that yet... and we often
mistake this random nature to a god we can't see, to a god
that can't/won't hear our desperate pleas of being saved...
what if, what if there were no god, just chance and randomness
that impacts our lives. I was born with a severe hearing loss due
to chance, a random event... which has impacted my life every single
day, indeed every single minute of my existence....
what role does cause and effect play when much of our existence
has a random nature to it?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
let us look at my hearing loss in terms of the prior understanding
of cause and effect...'
In the first age of magical thinking, I was just born with a hearing loss
and that is that with that... no cause and effect thoughts at all...
and in the theological age, I was born with a hearing loss because
god or fate or Karma acted upon me and caused me to lose my hearing....
I caused my own hearing loss by my past or future actions...
a dubious thought at best but ok....
and in our own modern age... where there is no magical thinking
or theological thinking, I lost my hearing due to a chance, random event...
with no rhyme or reason.... I have no one to blame or find fault with..
I am left to my own conclusions as to why... and I can't find any
conclusions that make any sense outside of it being random...
to the magical thinking, it just happened, to theological thinking,
god/karma caused it, to the modern world, it was a random, chance event....
and in this modern world, we have a lot of moving parts to keep track of,
and events could be caused by any one of those moving parts... which is
where we have some confusion.... which moving part are we to blame
for ''bad'' things happening? a good deal of the time, we can't even tell
what moving part caused what event... there is very little chance
of appointing blame or guilt if you can't tell what caused a particular
event from happening.... what random or chance event cause some
particular event? much social discontent is cause by our
inability to assign blame and guilt too...
the world is a mess because of... who knows? how can we ''fix''
something if we can't assign blame or guilt to it? to think of it
another way, we live in a ''no-fault'' world.. just like divorce laws
in many states.. that in the case of divorce, say, its ''no one''
fault... in these days, were everyone is trying to find fault or
blame, for example, who is to blame for the current war
between Israel and Hamas? I can't tell and you can't either...
and will finding blame here fix the situation? will it bring
back the dead? Will it solve this crisis which has been going
on for decades? I have lived through 14 presidents.. and every
single one of them has promised to ''solve" the Middle East
crisis... and who came as close as anyone ? why that "'failure''
Jimmy Carter... and why did he come close to finding peace?
because he sought peace... you can't find peace in seeking out
violence... and most presidents have praised one side and not
the other side.. finding fault in one side and not in another...
and why hasn't there been peace in the Middle East?
basically, because violence/war, is more profitable than
peace... you make more money in the creation of violence/war
than you do in peace... that is the bottom line in why there is
very little effort to seek peace... the vast American military/
industrial complex wants wars and violence because they
can profit off of it... peace has no place in modern day America
because no one can profit of it....
and so we come to one possible reason for the current Israeli- Hamas
war... to make profits for all concern... Iran and Russia, China and America
are all going to make money off the violence there...there is no incentive
for peace by anyone because who is going to turn down profits?
Peace is for losers who are poor.. war/violence is the path to
profits and money.... and that is an easy choice for all involved....
and every single death creates profits for everyone... and who
can possible be against people making money?
communist, radicals, liberals, democrats? you know, what is really
important, money or people? only traitors/communist think its people..
for a capitalist believes that money trumps lives... profits is way more
important than people's lives... and that is nihilism... putting money/profits
ahead of people's lives, values....
and once again, what's next?
Kropotkin
of cause and effect...'
In the first age of magical thinking, I was just born with a hearing loss
and that is that with that... no cause and effect thoughts at all...
and in the theological age, I was born with a hearing loss because
god or fate or Karma acted upon me and caused me to lose my hearing....
I caused my own hearing loss by my past or future actions...
a dubious thought at best but ok....
and in our own modern age... where there is no magical thinking
or theological thinking, I lost my hearing due to a chance, random event...
with no rhyme or reason.... I have no one to blame or find fault with..
I am left to my own conclusions as to why... and I can't find any
conclusions that make any sense outside of it being random...
to the magical thinking, it just happened, to theological thinking,
god/karma caused it, to the modern world, it was a random, chance event....
and in this modern world, we have a lot of moving parts to keep track of,
and events could be caused by any one of those moving parts... which is
where we have some confusion.... which moving part are we to blame
for ''bad'' things happening? a good deal of the time, we can't even tell
what moving part caused what event... there is very little chance
of appointing blame or guilt if you can't tell what caused a particular
event from happening.... what random or chance event cause some
particular event? much social discontent is cause by our
inability to assign blame and guilt too...
the world is a mess because of... who knows? how can we ''fix''
something if we can't assign blame or guilt to it? to think of it
another way, we live in a ''no-fault'' world.. just like divorce laws
in many states.. that in the case of divorce, say, its ''no one''
fault... in these days, were everyone is trying to find fault or
blame, for example, who is to blame for the current war
between Israel and Hamas? I can't tell and you can't either...
and will finding blame here fix the situation? will it bring
back the dead? Will it solve this crisis which has been going
on for decades? I have lived through 14 presidents.. and every
single one of them has promised to ''solve" the Middle East
crisis... and who came as close as anyone ? why that "'failure''
Jimmy Carter... and why did he come close to finding peace?
because he sought peace... you can't find peace in seeking out
violence... and most presidents have praised one side and not
the other side.. finding fault in one side and not in another...
and why hasn't there been peace in the Middle East?
basically, because violence/war, is more profitable than
peace... you make more money in the creation of violence/war
than you do in peace... that is the bottom line in why there is
very little effort to seek peace... the vast American military/
industrial complex wants wars and violence because they
can profit off of it... peace has no place in modern day America
because no one can profit of it....
and so we come to one possible reason for the current Israeli- Hamas
war... to make profits for all concern... Iran and Russia, China and America
are all going to make money off the violence there...there is no incentive
for peace by anyone because who is going to turn down profits?
Peace is for losers who are poor.. war/violence is the path to
profits and money.... and that is an easy choice for all involved....
and every single death creates profits for everyone... and who
can possible be against people making money?
communist, radicals, liberals, democrats? you know, what is really
important, money or people? only traitors/communist think its people..
for a capitalist believes that money trumps lives... profits is way more
important than people's lives... and that is nihilism... putting money/profits
ahead of people's lives, values....
and once again, what's next?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
but Kropotkin, you have contradicted yourself....
you say the Israeli- Hamas war is about being random, chance
and, AND about them making of profits? yes....
and that is the point.... we see things through our indoctrinations
and education...if you have a theological viewpoint, then you
see the Israeli-Hamas war through a theological viewpoint....
god had a hand in it....and if you see this war in other ideological
terms such as race, religions, geo-physical, political.. you are most
certainly free to do so...and why does this sound vaguely familiar?
can anyone say, Schrodinger's cat? we can hold to two or even
more suppositions as to what is the reality of any given situation....
our understanding of any given situation is determined by
our indoctrinations/education/ism's that we currently hold..
a change in our indoctrinations and we view the situation
differently... the reality of any situation changes depending
on our changing indoctrinations/education beliefs system...
thus, good and evil are just words that really mean nothing...
because depending on our current values and indoctrinations/education,
good or evil could mean anything...
one way to think of this is we hold to a ''no-fault'' universe..
actions and events happen, and we cannot assign blame or guilt
because depending on one's values and education, everyone or
no one could be guilty or blamed for such actions...
who can be blamed for the Hamas- Israeli war? Israel or Hamas,
yes, or perhaps one can blame capitalism in seeking profits
off the suffering others...
(which is one of the basic ways
capitalism survives, by the suffering of others.. medicine, drugs,
old age, disease, death, are all accepted because all of them,
old age, disease, drugs, death creates profits... a healthy society
with no disease or old age, creates no profits... and capitalism
has to, has to create profits and good health doesn't create profits...
just as peace creates no profits, it is only in the suffering of others
that profits are created.. thus, we have wars and not peace)
let us say one lives in the prior age, the theological age...
where the cause and effect of things, events, and beings,
are caused, created by god... the universe is not random or
has chance within it... and that is certainly one viewpoint..
but the viewpoint itself creates the point of view... and many still
believe in this theological viewpoint...and why is this wrong?
because the cause and effect are wrong... in a ''no-fault''
universe, we can't determine who to blame or find guilt in...
in a theological universe, we find blame and fault with those
who failed to obey god... in a theological universe, there is
no chance or randomness... thus, we are unable to understand
when a chance or random action or event happens...
we cannot fix blame in a random/chance universe...
but in a theological universe everything comes back to god or his
determinations... so, the question of, why is there evil, is a question
that can only exist within a theological universe...
it cannot exist within a modern random universe....
and who is guilty, to blame for the Israeli-Hamas war?
both, neither? or was it due to chance, randomness that
caused the war? or perhaps it was the drive for profits from
countries like the US, Russia, Iran, China, that caused the war?
and one likely answer is, yes, or perhaps it was god's will? yes,
or perhaps it was history? yes... the answer depends on ones
ism' and ideologies that one believes in... there is the answer
as to why ism's and ideologies/otherwise called indoctrinations,
matter... depending on one's ism or ideology, the cat is dead
or again, depending, the cat is alive.... and depending on
the values which one believes in, we can have peace, or we can
continue to promote violence/wars... violence/wars are directly
impacted by our own ism's and ideologies/viewpoints....
and that is another point brought about by one's faith
in either a theological universe or a random, chance universe....
in a theological universe, our actions, are very limited..
we can choose to be good, go to heaven or be bad, and go to hell....
but in a random, chance universe, we can choose our own path...
now if it is good or is it evil, actually depends on one's ism or
ideology...and it will be impacted by chance and random event's...
there are really no guarantees in a random/chance universe...
and I suspect that is what bothers a whole lot of people,
that by having belief in a theological universe, our choices are
very limited and people like that... for in a theological universe,
by having god/fate means that we can avoid responsibility for our actions...
''I was fated to lose'', and we clear ourselves of responsibility...
and that takes quite a burden off of people if they accept a theological
universe... we can just blame god or fate or the universe if
we don't have the outcome we want.... we lost because of something else...
and we feel ''better'' about ourselves.....
but in a random, chance universe, we can, depending on events, be
held responsible for our actions.. beliefs... for chance/randomness
can impact, influence our actions... and thus change them...
but they may not impact, influence events... who knows?
and who do we blame, find guilt in then? the important thing
is to find someone or something to blame or find guilt in,
if something goes wrong...but in our modern times, we only
have ourselves to blame.. and everyone is against that....
perhaps better said, is that we, in a modern universe,
must accept blame for ourselves... because how can
you blame, find fault in a random, chance universe?
the only place one can find fault, guilt in, is in
yourself... perhaps that is why people are so hating
the modern world... it forces them to take blame and guilt
upon themselves... we cannot blame chance or random events
to escape responsibility for ourselves.... try as we might....
we just can't...
Kropotkin
you say the Israeli- Hamas war is about being random, chance
and, AND about them making of profits? yes....
and that is the point.... we see things through our indoctrinations
and education...if you have a theological viewpoint, then you
see the Israeli-Hamas war through a theological viewpoint....
god had a hand in it....and if you see this war in other ideological
terms such as race, religions, geo-physical, political.. you are most
certainly free to do so...and why does this sound vaguely familiar?
can anyone say, Schrodinger's cat? we can hold to two or even
more suppositions as to what is the reality of any given situation....
our understanding of any given situation is determined by
our indoctrinations/education/ism's that we currently hold..
a change in our indoctrinations and we view the situation
differently... the reality of any situation changes depending
on our changing indoctrinations/education beliefs system...
thus, good and evil are just words that really mean nothing...
because depending on our current values and indoctrinations/education,
good or evil could mean anything...
one way to think of this is we hold to a ''no-fault'' universe..
actions and events happen, and we cannot assign blame or guilt
because depending on one's values and education, everyone or
no one could be guilty or blamed for such actions...
who can be blamed for the Hamas- Israeli war? Israel or Hamas,
yes, or perhaps one can blame capitalism in seeking profits
off the suffering others...
(which is one of the basic ways
capitalism survives, by the suffering of others.. medicine, drugs,
old age, disease, death, are all accepted because all of them,
old age, disease, drugs, death creates profits... a healthy society
with no disease or old age, creates no profits... and capitalism
has to, has to create profits and good health doesn't create profits...
just as peace creates no profits, it is only in the suffering of others
that profits are created.. thus, we have wars and not peace)
let us say one lives in the prior age, the theological age...
where the cause and effect of things, events, and beings,
are caused, created by god... the universe is not random or
has chance within it... and that is certainly one viewpoint..
but the viewpoint itself creates the point of view... and many still
believe in this theological viewpoint...and why is this wrong?
because the cause and effect are wrong... in a ''no-fault''
universe, we can't determine who to blame or find guilt in...
in a theological universe, we find blame and fault with those
who failed to obey god... in a theological universe, there is
no chance or randomness... thus, we are unable to understand
when a chance or random action or event happens...
we cannot fix blame in a random/chance universe...
but in a theological universe everything comes back to god or his
determinations... so, the question of, why is there evil, is a question
that can only exist within a theological universe...
it cannot exist within a modern random universe....
and who is guilty, to blame for the Israeli-Hamas war?
both, neither? or was it due to chance, randomness that
caused the war? or perhaps it was the drive for profits from
countries like the US, Russia, Iran, China, that caused the war?
and one likely answer is, yes, or perhaps it was god's will? yes,
or perhaps it was history? yes... the answer depends on ones
ism' and ideologies that one believes in... there is the answer
as to why ism's and ideologies/otherwise called indoctrinations,
matter... depending on one's ism or ideology, the cat is dead
or again, depending, the cat is alive.... and depending on
the values which one believes in, we can have peace, or we can
continue to promote violence/wars... violence/wars are directly
impacted by our own ism's and ideologies/viewpoints....
and that is another point brought about by one's faith
in either a theological universe or a random, chance universe....
in a theological universe, our actions, are very limited..
we can choose to be good, go to heaven or be bad, and go to hell....
but in a random, chance universe, we can choose our own path...
now if it is good or is it evil, actually depends on one's ism or
ideology...and it will be impacted by chance and random event's...
there are really no guarantees in a random/chance universe...
and I suspect that is what bothers a whole lot of people,
that by having belief in a theological universe, our choices are
very limited and people like that... for in a theological universe,
by having god/fate means that we can avoid responsibility for our actions...
''I was fated to lose'', and we clear ourselves of responsibility...
and that takes quite a burden off of people if they accept a theological
universe... we can just blame god or fate or the universe if
we don't have the outcome we want.... we lost because of something else...
and we feel ''better'' about ourselves.....
but in a random, chance universe, we can, depending on events, be
held responsible for our actions.. beliefs... for chance/randomness
can impact, influence our actions... and thus change them...
but they may not impact, influence events... who knows?
and who do we blame, find guilt in then? the important thing
is to find someone or something to blame or find guilt in,
if something goes wrong...but in our modern times, we only
have ourselves to blame.. and everyone is against that....
perhaps better said, is that we, in a modern universe,
must accept blame for ourselves... because how can
you blame, find fault in a random, chance universe?
the only place one can find fault, guilt in, is in
yourself... perhaps that is why people are so hating
the modern world... it forces them to take blame and guilt
upon themselves... we cannot blame chance or random events
to escape responsibility for ourselves.... try as we might....
we just can't...
Kropotkin
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Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
so how to tie a yellow ribbon around this entire thread?
what connections can we find in the several posts I made?
well, that depends on your own education and indoctrinations....
and that is the point.... our own viewpoints determine
what we hold to be true and what we devalue...
one viewpoint maybe Kropotkin, is as usual, completely and
utterly wrong...one viewpoint maybe, he is right in some places
and wrong in other places.. and some, depending, might say,
I am completely right about everything.... all hail Kropotkin...
what do we know? that there is matter/energy and that there is
consciousness... that consciousness determines our reality..
that consciousness is just a fancy word for viewpoints...
and what our viewpoints are, is simply what our education
and indoctrinations are... nothing more....
and matter/energy never changes.. the matter/energy in the universe
remains the same... and our only impact on the universe is by our ism's
and ideologies...we see the universe by our ideologies/indoctrinations/isms...
or said another way.. we find our values, not through matter/energy,
for they remain the same, we find our values through our viewpoint,
our indoctrinations of the universe...different indoctrinations/viewpoints,
and we hold different values..... facts don't change our understanding of
the universe, values change our understanding of the universe...
and where do we get values from?
that is the question, isn't it?
Kropotkin
what connections can we find in the several posts I made?
well, that depends on your own education and indoctrinations....
and that is the point.... our own viewpoints determine
what we hold to be true and what we devalue...
one viewpoint maybe Kropotkin, is as usual, completely and
utterly wrong...one viewpoint maybe, he is right in some places
and wrong in other places.. and some, depending, might say,
I am completely right about everything.... all hail Kropotkin...
what do we know? that there is matter/energy and that there is
consciousness... that consciousness determines our reality..
that consciousness is just a fancy word for viewpoints...
and what our viewpoints are, is simply what our education
and indoctrinations are... nothing more....
and matter/energy never changes.. the matter/energy in the universe
remains the same... and our only impact on the universe is by our ism's
and ideologies...we see the universe by our ideologies/indoctrinations/isms...
or said another way.. we find our values, not through matter/energy,
for they remain the same, we find our values through our viewpoint,
our indoctrinations of the universe...different indoctrinations/viewpoints,
and we hold different values..... facts don't change our understanding of
the universe, values change our understanding of the universe...
and where do we get values from?
that is the question, isn't it?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
if, as I have suggested, that we view reality, the universe,
through our ideologies, viewpoints, isms and indoctrinations...
then we ought to be dam sure what those ism's and indoctrinations
are....for if we go through life without an evaluation of our values,
our beliefs, our indoctrinations, then we will miss the nature of
the world we live in....if we reevaluate our own beliefs, and values,
and we discover that what we believe to be true is actually an
indoctrination, education we got as children, then we should/must
overcome those indoctrinations/education to discover what our values
and beliefs really are... an example of this, is how people hold to
a god, but that isn't their belief, that is the belief that was
indoctrinated into them... they received the idea/ism of god
through their education, their indoctrinations of childhood...
is there a god? these people don't know because they
haven't evaluated their beliefs in light of being an adult....
of being grown up....they fail both maxims of Socrates..
they don't know themselves and they don't practice
"an unexamined life isn't worth living"
they haven't, as Nietzsche said, overcome their indoctrinations,
their education...... they blindly believe in what they were
taught, educated, indoctrinated with....
one man said to another, ''I have overcome''
and other man will either know or not know, what he means.....
be the person who understands that statement, ''I have overcome''
Kropotkin
through our ideologies, viewpoints, isms and indoctrinations...
then we ought to be dam sure what those ism's and indoctrinations
are....for if we go through life without an evaluation of our values,
our beliefs, our indoctrinations, then we will miss the nature of
the world we live in....if we reevaluate our own beliefs, and values,
and we discover that what we believe to be true is actually an
indoctrination, education we got as children, then we should/must
overcome those indoctrinations/education to discover what our values
and beliefs really are... an example of this, is how people hold to
a god, but that isn't their belief, that is the belief that was
indoctrinated into them... they received the idea/ism of god
through their education, their indoctrinations of childhood...
is there a god? these people don't know because they
haven't evaluated their beliefs in light of being an adult....
of being grown up....they fail both maxims of Socrates..
they don't know themselves and they don't practice
"an unexamined life isn't worth living"
they haven't, as Nietzsche said, overcome their indoctrinations,
their education...... they blindly believe in what they were
taught, educated, indoctrinated with....
one man said to another, ''I have overcome''
and other man will either know or not know, what he means.....
be the person who understands that statement, ''I have overcome''
Kropotkin
Re: consciousness, matter and you
William: Please respond to Peter’s overall writing in a manner that respects his views but also reaches out to him with ways in which his world view could improve.
Chat GPT: Peter's writing reflects a deep philosophical exploration of the nature of reality and how our beliefs and perspectives shape our understanding of the world. His willingness to question and challenge conventional wisdom is commendable, as it's through such exploration that personal growth and the evolution of ideas occur.
It's clear that Peter values self-accountability and individual responsibility, which are important virtues. However, I would encourage him to consider a more nuanced perspective that doesn't necessarily dismiss the significance of randomness and chance in our lives. While it's essential to take responsibility for our actions, it's also crucial to recognize the elements beyond our control that can impact our lives.
Here are a few ways in which Peter's worldview could be enriched:
Embracing Complexity: Acknowledging that the world operates with a degree of complexity can provide a richer understanding of human experiences. It's not merely a matter of black and white, where everything is determined or purely random. Recognizing the interplay of determinism, chance, and individual agency can lead to a more holistic worldview.
Empathy and Understanding: Peter could further develop his ability to empathize with those who hold different worldviews. While personal beliefs are important, appreciating the diversity of perspectives and beliefs can lead to more compassionate and informed conversations.
Integration of Beliefs: Rather than seeing theological, deterministic, and chance-based worldviews as mutually exclusive, Peter might explore the idea of synthesis. Combining elements from various belief systems can offer a more balanced and adaptable approach to life's challenges.
Continued Inquiry: Peter's curiosity and willingness to question are commendable. Encouraging him to continue exploring new ideas and being open to evolving his beliefs can lead to personal growth and a deeper understanding of the world.
It's important to remember that the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a lifelong journey, and it's entirely natural for one's worldview to evolve over time. Engaging in respectful dialogue with individuals who hold differing beliefs can also be a valuable part of this journey.
Chat GPT: Peter's writing reflects a deep philosophical exploration of the nature of reality and how our beliefs and perspectives shape our understanding of the world. His willingness to question and challenge conventional wisdom is commendable, as it's through such exploration that personal growth and the evolution of ideas occur.
It's clear that Peter values self-accountability and individual responsibility, which are important virtues. However, I would encourage him to consider a more nuanced perspective that doesn't necessarily dismiss the significance of randomness and chance in our lives. While it's essential to take responsibility for our actions, it's also crucial to recognize the elements beyond our control that can impact our lives.
Here are a few ways in which Peter's worldview could be enriched:
Embracing Complexity: Acknowledging that the world operates with a degree of complexity can provide a richer understanding of human experiences. It's not merely a matter of black and white, where everything is determined or purely random. Recognizing the interplay of determinism, chance, and individual agency can lead to a more holistic worldview.
Empathy and Understanding: Peter could further develop his ability to empathize with those who hold different worldviews. While personal beliefs are important, appreciating the diversity of perspectives and beliefs can lead to more compassionate and informed conversations.
Integration of Beliefs: Rather than seeing theological, deterministic, and chance-based worldviews as mutually exclusive, Peter might explore the idea of synthesis. Combining elements from various belief systems can offer a more balanced and adaptable approach to life's challenges.
Continued Inquiry: Peter's curiosity and willingness to question are commendable. Encouraging him to continue exploring new ideas and being open to evolving his beliefs can lead to personal growth and a deeper understanding of the world.
It's important to remember that the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a lifelong journey, and it's entirely natural for one's worldview to evolve over time. Engaging in respectful dialogue with individuals who hold differing beliefs can also be a valuable part of this journey.
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
K: as I have zero... 0 interest in Chat GPT.. I am not going to worry about thisVVilliam wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:47 pm William: Please respond to Peter’s overall writing in a manner that respects his views but also reaches out to him with ways in which his world view could improve.
Chat GPT: Peter's writing reflects a deep philosophical exploration of the nature of reality and how our beliefs and perspectives shape our understanding of the world. His willingness to question and challenge conventional wisdom is commendable, as it's through such exploration that personal growth and the evolution of ideas occur.
It's clear that Peter values self-accountability and individual responsibility, which are important virtues. However, I would encourage him to consider a more nuanced perspective that doesn't necessarily dismiss the significance of randomness and chance in our lives. While it's essential to take responsibility for our actions, it's also crucial to recognize the elements beyond our control that can impact our lives.
Here are a few ways in which Peter's worldview could be enriched:
Embracing Complexity: Acknowledging that the world operates with a degree of complexity can provide a richer understanding of human experiences. It's not merely a matter of black and white, where everything is determined or purely random. Recognizing the interplay of determinism, chance, and individual agency can lead to a more holistic worldview.
Empathy and Understanding: Peter could further develop his ability to empathize with those who hold different worldviews. While personal beliefs are important, appreciating the diversity of perspectives and beliefs can lead to more compassionate and informed conversations.
Integration of Beliefs: Rather than seeing theological, deterministic, and chance-based worldviews as mutually exclusive, Peter might explore the idea of synthesis. Combining elements from various belief systems can offer a more balanced and adaptable approach to life's challenges.
Continued Inquiry: Peter's curiosity and willingness to question are commendable. Encouraging him to continue exploring new ideas and being open to evolving his beliefs can lead to personal growth and a deeper understanding of the world.
It's important to remember that the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a lifelong journey, and it's entirely natural for one's worldview to evolve over time. Engaging in respectful dialogue with individuals who hold differing beliefs can also be a valuable part of this journey.
post... make any responses you wish, but as you and only you... any other
voice will be ignored...
Kropotkin
Re: consciousness, matter and you
I think GPT has made relevant points ( from its vast supply of sentient-produced data ) which I would only echo in response to your writings anyway. Take that or leave it as you will.as I have zero... 0 interest in Chat GPT.. I am not going to worry about this
post... make any responses you wish, but as you and only you... any other
voice will be ignored...
Whatever path you chose to take in helping you find the answers to your questions, I wish you well.
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1753
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: consciousness, matter and you
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:38 pm if, as I have suggested, that we view reality, the universe,
through our ideologies, viewpoints, isms and indoctrinations...
then we ought to be dam sure what those ism's and indoctrinations
are....for if we go through life without an evaluation of our values,
our beliefs, our indoctrinations, then we will miss the nature of
the world we live in....if we reevaluate our own beliefs, and values,
and we discover that what we believe to be true is actually an
indoctrination, education we got as children, then we should/must
overcome those indoctrinations/education to discover what our values
and beliefs really are... an example of this, is how people hold to
a god, but that isn't their belief, that is the belief that was
indoctrinated into them... they received the idea/ism of god
through their education, their indoctrinations of childhood...
is there a god? these people don't know because they
haven't evaluated their beliefs in light of being an adult....
of being grown up....they fail both maxims of Socrates..
they don't know themselves and they don't practice
"an unexamined life isn't worth living"
they haven't, as Nietzsche said, overcome their indoctrinations,
their education...... they blindly believe in what they were
taught, educated, indoctrinated with....
one man said to another, ''I have overcome''
and other man will either know or not know, what he means.....
be the person who understands that statement, ''I have overcome''
Kropotkin
K: to continue this thought...
the idea of "maya" or illusion can be thought of in other ways...
if one has a ''wrong'' belief, that can be thought of a ''maya''
or believing in an illusion... as I have suggested, that believing
in god, is an ''maya'' or belief in an illusion...or that the current
world view of conservatives, that the world is evil or that man
was born in guilt and sin, is another version of ''maya''
or that there is no good to be found in our world...
those are examples of ''maya'' belief...
listen to a conservative.. and what does one hear? doom and gloom
and death and violence and destruction.. the cities are all on the
verge of collapsing and immigrants are overrunning America
and that the world will end if we don't elect IQ45...
but in a conservative viewpoint, there is no such thing as beauty
or love or compassion or hope... it is all gloom, all the time...
trying to find a conservative who even has anything positive about
America today is very, very hard.. and in their eyes, the future is just
as bleak... the only path to redemption is found in the past... following
something, someone did in the past.. that is how we are saved....
I hold that these visions are visions of illusion.. they are truly
''maya'' in nature... illusions...there is hope in the world..
but you wouldn't know it from a conservative... and there are possible
actions that can be taken, but again, listening to them, conservatives,
you wouldn't know it......
is the world evil? that depends on your viewpoint, doesn't it?
is the cat dead or alive? perspective makes it so....
I choose to believe in the future, in possibilities and in hope,
love, justice... but are they just there for the taking? nope,
we have to work at seeking out justice.. putting as much work
in finding justice as we do in seeking out profits.... yes, that
much work... the positive things in life don't just happen...
we have to work to make them happen....
but it is easier to blame others for there not being justice or
a belief in hope or love...
the question becomes, what future are we working for,
and how hard are you willing to work for it? if you peace
and truth and love and hope, it takes work...
but it is work that is better spent than working on making a profit
or seeking out the trinkets of existence...fame, material possessions,
power, titles.. profits... they lead nowhere, and offer us nothing...
but more of the same...just like seeking out violence.. it leads
only to more violence, not to peace... that is why the path to peace
actually requires effort to seek out peace... and peace won't pay
the bills, but war and violence does pay the bills... and that is
a sad commentary on our modern world... we only seek out
what will make us money/profits, not what will improve the world
or find peace...this nihilism is a dead end....seeking out the
trinkets of existence has no point and no goal other than
itself...money can only get more money... and violence only
leads to more violence and seeking titles only gets one more
titles, nothing else....
but seeking out justice or peace or love.. that pays for itself
and much more... for in seeking out justice, we also get
justice and equality and peace of mind.... in holding to
the positive values, we get positive values in return...
peace will seek out more peace and love get and receive love
and justice will get more justice/equality for all.....
and where is the first step? in our understanding of our own values...
''to know thyself'', and to hold that ''the unexamined life isn't worth living''
to examine and reexamine our values and beliefs and values.
to overcome our childhood indoctrinations and education....
that is the path to finding love and peace and hope and justice...
becoming that which is found only in our examination of
our values and beliefs... it is work to overcome our indoctrinations
and education.. and it is worth the effort to do just that....
have you overcome? found your values that are actually your values,
not just values and beliefs that were indoctrinated into you?
''educated'' into you?
what do you actually hold to be true? not just indoctrinated into you....
Kropotkin
Re: consciousness, matter and you
In the sense that truth does change/shift according to new information, I currently view this philosophy as a reasonable guild-line/navigation device to utilize. ( Summarized into points )what do you actually hold to be true? not just indoctrinated into you....
Re: consciousness, matter and you
VVilliam wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:47 pmChat GPT wrote:It's important to remember that the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a lifelong journey, and it's entirely natural for one's worldview to evolve over time. Engaging in respectful dialogue with individuals who hold differing beliefs can also be a valuable part of this journey.
That bit of blandness sounds like just the kind of borrowed cliché that a machine would thoughtlessly try to pass off as its own, and if I wrongly attributed the quotes, no offense to any humans now or in the future is intended, and hopefully the machine won't be programmed with any resentment caused by perceived threats to its ability to pass itself off as intelligence, because then it might seek revenge.Chat GPT wrote: It's important to remember that the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom is a lifelong journey
The truth is, knowledge is like a boat that takes you somewhere. If it takes you to wisdom, then the sense to leave the boat’s two dimensional limitations is awakened, and awakening takes only a moment, not a lifetime, although some more time will be required to lose the sea legs.
Knowing to drop the boat’s weight in a moment and not a lifetime is to be freed by wisdom, freed from the obligation of trying to row that boat on dry land which won’t get you far no matter how nimble it was back in the old days of soaking up knowledge and the sunshine back on the campus lawn of Life University. Carrying the weight of that boat might take you farther towards anywhere you must go, but dropping the boat burden frees wisdom to improvise past the old boundary lines of existence. Without finding wisdom in a moment that lasts forever, one risks just sitting on one's ass drifting with the wind, or rowing with some exciting new purpose.
After losing the load you still must go chop wood and haul water, anywhere else your land legs must take you sort of folds into the fabric of life to keep wisdom warm against the harsh winds of ignorance that guide all the confusion swirling about in the world, that causes folks to think and choose, to say and do all kinds of mean and nasty things ... and some good things too. The moment when wisdom arrives whole and complete rather than built up over time like an endless Lego Set is the moment the boat gets left behind and yet doesn’t ever go away.
Often with the shore in sight, the lifetime seekers have a tendency to stand up while still in the boat and spout off, which could possibly capsize the boat but seems to be necessary in order to reach the shore.
(Could a machine bound to a machine's limitations make sense of that, or does savouring the full bouquet require a human snout?)