Only relatively.Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:13 amIf humans have object-permanence, then we are Objects, in addition to what we call "Subjects"—so both Subject & Object.Trajk Logik wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 pmI was never disagreeing with you in this regard. I am a realist but not a materialist.
I am looking for an explanation as to how you think that consciousness/life deserves this special property, "subjective" when the explanation you have provided thus far can be applied to things that are not conscious and not alive.
We are not objectively subjective, any more than we are subjectively objective.
We are only objective and subjective in as much as we relate.
No it does not.
You premised Reality on your own Subjectivity. This contradicts object-permanence through your own reasoning. You've repeatedly claimed that we only can know object-permanence first through the senses.
YOU only have your own personal outlook from which to understand what you take to be "reality". Since it is your POV, then it can only be subjective. You have to consult the testimony of others to understand the finer points of objectivity, through agreement of criteria. THis thing which is only an aspiration but can never be fully achieved since it is not unimaginable; but is not possible to witness all of reality from a completely objective standpoint, and the fact that humans have "objective permanence" does not mean they have access to an objective reality. An objective reality must be constructed painstakingly from the POVs of each subject.
And the fact that you miss the point I just made above explains why this part of your text is confused.But now you've stated that object-permanence does come about through empirical/logical/rational thought. Why does it matter how you, or babies, come about it, when it is already taken for given? It doesn't matter that object-permanence comes after your conscious-awareness is formed; because I argue, object-permanence represents any person, any baby, and Subject discovering something innate (some process/pattern/activity) about the universe, about Existence, that precedes Awareness, Perception, and Consciousness.
Ditto
In other words, object-permanence is not an "Imagining" about the universe, it is a type of "waking up" as to the Nature of the Universe or Existence.
So once you've awakened...why not apply this newfound Rationality to everything else, not just your mother?
This means that it is The Subject, what you've agued is your Reality, that is the Exception to the rule, not the Norm. Your Subjective-Reality is the "rarity" of Nature, not the Object-Permanence. Or another argument...human consciousness is unique because of the Evolution required to "build" or "create" or "manifest" such a "Subjective-Reality". The Object-Permanence precedes Awareness.
Do you disagree?