The Objective Realm

[commonsense]

.

[seeds]

Objectivity is outside all human or animal conscious awareness.

Right you are, Wiz.

Literally everything that exists on the outside of our minds (and that includes our body and brain) is "objective" relative to the inner (subjective) reality of our minds.

So if objectivity is 'outside' consciousness, then how do we (humanity) know about it?

We know about it because our bodies and brains, which were used to create our minds/souls, are equipped with "windows," so to speak, that allow our five senses...

(which are part of the mind and not the body)

...to peer outward into the inner dimension of the mind of the higher Being that created our bodies and brains - which were formed from the living mental fabric of its very own being.

Furthermore, at the moment of death, this unique situation will end for us, for we will no longer be peering into the inner reality of our Creator's mind.

And that's because our own minds/souls will literally be delivered (birthed) out of this objective realm and into a higher (transcendent) context of reality where the only things that will be objective relative to our minds/souls at that point, will be other minds/souls (just like us) who also occupy that transcendent realm.
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[Wizard22]

Yeah, we kind of do, Iwanna...

Well, not me. I'm not in that we. And I don't think other people have to either. That they will, that's another story. They may think they have to. But they kinda don't have to. And there's no need to encourage them or us to think we have to.

Because the majority humans in the world, don't want to think and contemplate for 50 years about the course of actions of life, unlike Philosophers who enjoy to do so. Thus the masses find their wisdom in their Churches, Elders, their Kin and ancestors who came before them.

I am not suggesting philosophy either. Generally one needs some reasoning in there, along with whatever values, desires, goals you have.

You're a thinker, Iwanna. The masses are not. The masses are followers. So, the better question is, will you be a leader?

Or just waste a lifetime of thought?

[Wizard22]

But I am still curious what your response is to the content of my post.

99.9% of Politics is Subjective, not Objective.

The exception is...empathy, seeing both sides for they are, without bias, without emotion, without passion, without affiliation: Bi-Partisanship.

As an American, despite my opposition to the Democrat-Liberal-Left, and despite the Evils they represent, I do see their positive attributes and redeeming qualities. Therefore, I'd rather the Far-Left and Far-Right cooperate, and come together, when necessary and appropriate, to face larger challenges as a whole, collective unit. But this is the largest challenge, politically speaking.

[Wizard22]

The decisions you mention can be made without reference to religion, and should be made without reference to it. Religion is about an elite minority controlling the bahaviour of society according to their own preferences.

How is that wrong though?

Without moral guidance, humans revert back into animals, and behave as such... so what's your alternative?

[Iwannaplato]

You're a thinker, Iwanna. The masses are not. The masses are followers. So, the better question is, will you be a leader?

I do my best, and obviously not here. This is stress relief and sort of like crossword puzzles. There's always the hope that I will learn how people get stuck in their thinking or about what holds people's idea together even when they don't make any sense. It's not just a game for me. I do learn about the way others think and manage not to and this teaches me also about myself. But any leadership, that's happening in my life face to face with people.

Or just waste a lifetime of thought?

And you?

[Wizard22]

The Reformation opened up the human mind. What followed was the ENlightenment, science progress, and secular politics which gave us everything we have today.
So no - not any kind of mistake.

What Protestants did was to actually read the fucking bible to find out what was in it; tranlating it into several langauges.
Catholics were prevernted from that and had to rely on the priests how read in Latin.
DO you know enough Latin the read a book?
No?
I'm not surprised.
So, nah one of the best things that ever happend.

The problems that developed from Protestantism, to this day, is that the lower classes of society are still illiterate despite proliferation of access of knowledge, NOW more than ever before.

Protestants never learned the importance of 'Priestly' class mediators. A rural farmhand, hill billy hick, is unfit to deconstruct Theology.

It's a matter of mis-interpretation...applied to Morality, Politics, History, Culture, etc.

[Wizard22]

You're a thinker, Iwanna. The masses are not. The masses are followers. So, the better question is, will you be a leader?

I do my best, and obviously not here. This is stress relief and sort of like crossword puzzles. There's always the hope that I will learn how people get stuck in their thinking or about what holds people's idea together even when they don't make any sense. It's not just a game for me. I do learn about the way others think and manage not to and this teaches me also about myself. But any leadership, that's happening in my life face to face with people.

Or just waste a lifetime of thought?

And you?

I've led before...and I'll lead again.

[Wizard22]

some religions tell you what you can do...

every government tells you what you must do under threat of punishment

-Imp

Right on

[Wizard22]

Knowledge is justified belief sufficient for a given use case. It is always perspective bound and never approaches objective (which implies exhaustive), except in the case of logic which is relationships that always replicate, such as the laws of physics. But this is meta-epistemology, not metaphysics.

Go on...

[Wizard22]

Obviously not.
Whilst it is true that the world we construct of realithy within ourselves, it must be understood that it is constructed primarily from our contact with the objective realm.

Always Hypothetically... Objectivity is the wall of human knowledge, awareness, and consciousness. Trying to approach the wall, only expands it away.

[Wizard22]

Uummm... not quite. You are correct that science analyzes situations but does not draw conclusions whereas religion has conclusions in the absence of analysis (dogma). However when each individual human subjectively decides on their personal moral code they each use their own personal blend of dogma, psychological tendances, observations (including scientific analysis) and peer pressure. Thus neither has a uniform advantage, that is some weight dogma more, other weight their observations/life experience more (which can include science).

You helped my main point though. It is about peer pressure. And there's lots of Christians-Jews-Muslims in the world... or politically, there's a lot of Democrats-Republicans in the country...

[Veritas Aequitas]

A very simple thought experiment that immediately presents a problem with this stuff about reality not being mind-independent.

If two people and only two people are hanging out and one of em falls over dead, the other guy should stop existing becuz the guy who was perceiving him (making him exist) is now dead.

The only way to solve this one is to insert a third party observer (god) like Berkeley did. And u don't wanna do that do ya, VA?

Philosophically;
There are Two Senses of Reality
viewtopic.php?t=40265
i.e.

1. The philosophical realists mind-independent stance
2. The human-based FSK stance

IF, there are only two persons, A & B existing,

Based on 2. The human-based FSK stance,
According to A, B's existence is a human-A conditioned-existence; because B's existence is realized by A.
If A is dead, there is no human-A-conditioned-B-existence.

Because B's existence is conditioned upon A-existence and since A exists with a mind, it follow that there cannot be an absolute mind-independent existence of B.
B's existence must also somehow be connected to A.
Note 'connected' does not mean A constructed B physically from scratch.

Since B is still alive, B is only aware of his own existence.

I have referred to this many times,
Why Philosophical Realism [mind-independence] is Illusory
viewtopic.php?t=40167
This is an evolutionary default and humans are naturally driven to this psychologically and thus cannot be taken as an absolute truth.

[Wizard22]

.

I'm aware of most of what you posted. I'll go more into detail and the nitty-gritty, a little later, I'm out of time at the moment.

[Sculptor]

The Reformation opened up the human mind. What followed was the ENlightenment, science progress, and secular politics which gave us everything we have today.
So no - not any kind of mistake.

What Protestants did was to actually read the fucking bible to find out what was in it; tranlating it into several langauges.
Catholics were prevernted from that and had to rely on the priests how read in Latin.
DO you know enough Latin the read a book?
No?
I'm not surprised.
So, nah one of the best things that ever happend.

The problems that developed from Protestantism, to this day, is that the lower classes of society are still illiterate despite proliferation of access of knowledge, NOW more than ever before.

That is NOT caused by Protestants.
Protestants did more than any other religion to support education.
But the general problem with all religion is their wish to mind control the population.

Protestants never learned the importance of 'Priestly' class mediators. A rural farmhand, hill billy hick, is unfit to deconstruct Theology.

Good luck with that fantasy you have just concocted.

It's a matter of mis-interpretation...applied to Morality, Politics, History, Culture, etc.

Duh - whatever dude