Philosophy Now Forum

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So knowledge is really belief rather than fact. It is JTB. It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced? And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum? Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:26 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So knowledge is really belief rather than fact. It is JTB. It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced? And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum? Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

Knowledge is experience. The sun in my experience has always set in the west, and perhaps will do so today and tomorrow.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm So knowledge is really belief rather than fact.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm It is JTB.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:09 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:26 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So knowledge is really belief rather than fact. It is JTB. It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced? And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum? Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

Knowledge is experience. The sun in my experience has always set in the west, and perhaps it will do so today and tomorrow.

Perhaps.

Age wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:19 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So, instead of 'believing' it will happen why not just 'think' it will happen, instead?

The word 'believe', in the above circumstance, brings with 'it' a connotation of 'must happen'. Which, as you already explained, may NOT even happen and so do NOT 'know' will happen but which you 'think' will happen.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm So knowledge is really belief rather than fact.

BUT what you 'believe' will happen, or 'believe' is true, is NOT necessarily what 'will happen', nor 'what is true', at all. So, 'knowledge', therefore, is NOT necessarily 'belief' AT ALL but rather some 'thing' else instead. Which, by the way, will all depend on how 'you' are defining the word 'knowledge' itself, anyway, EXACTLY.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm It is JTB.

So-called 'justified true belief', in the above, scenario can only be verified AFTER 'the fact', which may be all well and good. But, AGAIN, WHY even hold or have 'a belief' of some 'thing' that may NOT be true or may NOT even happen anyway? AGAIN, WHY NOT just 'think' that 'it' is true or will happen.

WHY NOT just say and/or think, 'From my perspective, which is based solely and only upon my own past experiences, and as far as I am aware the sun will 'appear' to set, to me, at some designated measured 'time', instead. At least 'this' IS IRREFUTABLY and ACTUALLY True.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced?

WHY even bother 'wasting time and energy' on such completely unnecessary 'things'. WHY NOT just 'think' some 'thing' is true or will happen, INSTEAD, of 'believing' 'it' is true or will happen?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum?

If you can NOT, then 'it' is ONLY 'thought' to happen/be true, and NOT 'known' to happen/be true. The word 'known', by the way, relates to the word 'knowledge'. Which, by the way, should help or be some guidance in HOW you are/could be defining the word 'knowledge', as I alluded to above, earlier.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

It is all just a complete waste of time and energy anyway. Just replace the word 'believe' with the word 'think' and change the words 'my belief is ...' with the words 'as far as i am aware ...', then all is well and good here.

It is all VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY, REALLY.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:20 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:09 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:26 pm

Knowledge is experience. The sun in my experience has always set in the west, and perhaps it will do so today and tomorrow.

Perhaps.

Nothing being eternal it is all perhaps.

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:55 am

Age wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:19 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So, instead of 'believing' it will happen why not just 'think' it will happen, instead?

The word 'believe', in the above circumstance, brings with 'it' a connotation of 'must happen'. Which, as you already explained, may NOT even happen and so do NOT 'know' will happen but which you 'think' will happen.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm So knowledge is really belief rather than fact.

BUT what you 'believe' will happen, or 'believe' is true, is NOT necessarily what 'will happen', nor 'what is true', at all. So, 'knowledge', therefore, is NOT necessarily 'belief' AT ALL but rather some 'thing' else instead. Which, by the way, will all depend on how 'you' are defining the word 'knowledge' itself, anyway, EXACTLY.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm It is JTB.

So-called 'justified true belief', in the above, scenario can only be verified AFTER 'the fact', which may be all well and good. But, AGAIN, WHY even hold or have 'a belief' of some 'thing' that may NOT be true or may NOT even happen anyway? AGAIN, WHY NOT just 'think' that 'it' is true or will happen.

WHY NOT just say and/or think, 'From my perspective, which is based solely and only upon my own past experiences, and as far as I am aware the sun will 'appear' to set, to me, at some designated measured 'time', instead. At least 'this' IS IRREFUTABLY and ACTUALLY True.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced?

WHY even bother 'wasting time and energy' on such completely unnecessary 'things'. WHY NOT just 'think' some 'thing' is true or will happen, INSTEAD, of 'believing' 'it' is true or will happen?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum?

If you can NOT, then 'it' is ONLY 'thought' to happen/be true, and NOT 'known' to happen/be true. The word 'known', by the way, relates to the word 'knowledge'. Which, by the way, should help or be some guidance in HOW you are/could be defining the word 'knowledge', as I alluded to above, earlier.

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

It is all just a complete waste of time and energy anyway. Just replace the word 'believe' with the word 'think' and change the words 'my belief is ...' with the words 'as far as i am aware ...', then all is well and good here.

It is all VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY, REALLY.

Very good. But how can you think something is true unless you believe your thinking is reliable?

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So knowledge is really belief rather than fact. It is JTB. It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced? And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum? Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

Impenitent wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 9:02 pm the sun will go supernova soon enough

-Imp

Age wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 3:14 am

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:20 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 12:09 am

Perhaps.

Nothing being eternal it is all perhaps.

But some 'things' ARE eternal.

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:45 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So knowledge is really belief rather than fact. It is JTB. It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced? And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum? Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

You can't. We do our best in the given situation. Or we don't.

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:17 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:45 am

commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:15 pm I believe the sun will descend in the west tonight. I believe this because that is what has always happened. But, of course, I cannot know what the sun will do tonight, no matter how many times it has done such until now. I can believe it, but cannot know it.

So knowledge is really belief rather than fact. It is JTB. It is even said by some to be opinion. What makes a belief justifiable other than its ability to be reproduced, along with its inability to fail to be reproduced? And how can I be certain that the belief can be reproduced ad infinitum? Or that it will always be impossible to fail to be reproduced?

You can't. We do our best in the given situation. Or we don't.

Yes, and that’s why I say that one must believe that something is a fact before one can begin to consider it to be true knowledge.

popeye1945 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:27 pm

commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 1:17 pm

Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 6:45 am You can't. We do our best in the given situation. Or we don't.

Yes, and that’s why I say that one must believe that something is a fact before one can begin to consider it to be true knowledge.

One believes one's personal experience until one is given a reason to question that experience, that is why it is said that experience is knowledge. Experience is knowledge of the physical world though it is not infallible.