Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

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iambiguous
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by iambiguous »

attofishpi wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:04 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2023 7:57 pm Come on, let's get real. If you actually did find yourself in a position of endlessly rolling a heavy boulder up a hill only to have it roll back down into the valley, compelling you to roll it back up again all the way to the grave and beyond...how happy would you be? I can hardly imagine a more "nauseating" predicament myself.
Really? I am sure I speak for many on this forum that being forced to read your copious amounts of waffling drivel would be far more "nauseating".

:P

ps. Hey, you started it.
I don't call them "pinheads" for nothing.

:lol:





Note to others:

Just out of curiosity, when did it become obligatory to read what I post here?

:wink:
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by Gary Childress »

iambiguous wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:02 pm Note to others:

Just out of curiosity, when did it become obligatory to read what I post here?

:wink:
It's how people "help" those struggling with "negativity" in the West. If we don't shape up they'll beat us to death. "Tough love". It always works in the movies.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by attofishpi »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:52 am
iambiguous wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:02 pm Note to others:

Just out of curiosity, when did it become obligatory to read what I post here?

:wink:
It's how people "help" those struggling with "negativity" in the West. If we don't shape up they'll beat us to death. "Tough love". It always works in the movies.
Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by Gary Childress »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:33 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:52 am
iambiguous wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:02 pm Note to others:

Just out of curiosity, when did it become obligatory to read what I post here?

:wink:
It's how people "help" those struggling with "negativity" in the West. If we don't shape up they'll beat us to death. "Tough love". It always works in the movies.
Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
As far as I'm aware you weren't "forced" to read any of his posts in this thread. Is he to blame because he's just a "downer" for all the happy people who are no longer as happy?
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by attofishpi »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:37 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:33 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:52 am

It's how people "help" those struggling with "negativity" in the West. If we don't shape up they'll beat us to death. "Tough love". It always works in the movies.
Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
As far as I'm aware you weren't "forced" to read any of his posts in this thread. Is he to blame because he's just a "downer" for all the happy people who are no longer as happy?
I didn't read his posts in this thread, I did read what you quoted of his post and realised that there was something worse than the pushing a rock up a hill analogy. Get a sense of humour ffs Gary.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by Gary Childress »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:47 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:37 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
As far as I'm aware you weren't "forced" to read any of his posts in this thread. Is he to blame because he's just a "downer" for all the happy people who are no longer as happy?
I didn't read his posts in this thread, I did read what you quoted of his post and realised that there was something worse than the pushing a rock up a hill analogy. Get a sense of humour ffs Gary.
I haven't had a "sense of humor" literally since the day I was first hospitalized in a mental ward. I used to watch sitcoms and laugh and enjoyed music intensely. These days I mostly pass time sleeping or playing computer games. Forgetting the world exists for a few hours is the best therapy I know.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by iambiguous »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
Well, presuming that we do live in a free will world, try forcing yourself to avoid reading my posts. Of your own volition, for example.

Also, we post here and we really have no other way of knowing to what extent others are interested in what we have say other than in checking the number of replies and the number of views. And, in particular, regarding those threads which I created here, lots and lots and lots of folks seem interested in what I do post here.

On the other hand, admittedly, lots of members here are also disturbed by the arguments I make. As I once noted to Prom75...
1] I argue that while philosophers may go in search of wisdom, this wisdom is always truncated by the gap between what philosophers think they know [about anything] and all that there is to be known in order to grasp the human condition in the context of existence itself. That bothers some. When it really begins to sink in that this quest is ultimately futile, some abandon philosophy altogether. Instead, they stick to the part where they concentrate fully on living their lives "for all practical purposes" from day to day.

2] I suggest in turn it appears reasonable that, in a world sans God, the human brain is but more matter wholly in sync [as a part of nature] with the laws of matter. And, thus, anything we think, feel, say or do is always only that which we were ever able to think, feel, say and do. And that includes philosophers. Some will inevitably find that disturbing. If they can't know for certain that they possess autonomy, they can't know for certain that their philosophical excursions are in fact of their own volition.

3] And then the part where, assuming some measure of autonomy, I suggest that "I" in the is/ought world is basically an existential contraption interacting with other existential contraptions in a world teeming with conflicting goods --- and in contexts in which wealth and power prevails in the political arena. The part where "I" becomes fractured and fragmented.
Unless, of course, I'm wrong.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by attofishpi »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:54 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
Well, presuming that we do live in a free will world, try forcing yourself to avoid reading my posts. Of your own volition, for example.

Also, we post here and we really have no other way of knowing to what extent others are interested in what we have say other than in checking the number of replies and the number of views. And, in particular, regarding those threads which I created here, lots and lots and lots of folks seem interested in what I do post here.
The threads you create happen to be some of the main areas of philosophical enquiry, hence why they have large views and interaction.
One of my main gripes with you is that you 'commandeer' threads and posts copious amounts of your own musings which results in any other posts being reduced to falling into quicksand and lost.

iambiguous wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:54 pmOn the other hand, admittedly, lots of members here are also disturbed by the arguments I make. As I once noted to Prom75...
1] I argue that while philosophers may go in search of wisdom, this wisdom is always truncated by the gap between what philosophers think they know [about anything] and all that there is to be known in order to grasp the human condition in the context of existence itself. That bothers some. When it really begins to sink in that this quest is ultimately futile, some abandon philosophy altogether. Instead, they stick to the part where they concentrate fully on living their lives "for all practical purposes" from day to day.

2] I suggest in turn it appears reasonable that, in a world sans God, the human brain is but more matter wholly in sync [as a part of nature] with the laws of matter. And, thus, anything we think, feel, say or do is always only that which we were ever able to think, feel, say and do. And that includes philosophers. Some will inevitably find that disturbing. If they can't know for certain that they possess autonomy, they can't know for certain that their philosophical excursions are in fact of their own volition.

3] And then the part where, assuming some measure of autonomy, I suggest that "I" in the is/ought world is basically an existential contraption interacting with other existential contraptions in a world teeming with conflicting goods --- and in contexts in which wealth and power prevails in the political arena. The part where "I" becomes fractured and fragmented.
Unless, of course, I'm wrong.
I guess here I can touch on another gripe I have with you.

Wisdom?
It is clear on this forum and philosophy in general that comprehending 'God' including to discount the concept or provide evidence for argument, is probably THE main area of pursuit.
It is also clear that you are perturbed by my claim to know God as since you have been posting you have condescended to me with ad hominem attacks and provided nothing to counter statements I make about this entity. I think also since I admit to all many times, I have never formally studied philosophy, nor have read much of the vast amount of literature on the subject. An analytical logical mindset is KEY to philosophical enquiry and as a qualified systems analyst\programmer I assure I am not limited in that capacity thus keep your condescension and ad hominem attacks out of our little interactions, and we'll get along just fine.

It is said that the one making the claim is required to provide the evidence.
Well, I have put together empirical evidence that is viewable to all that in my opinion, proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is indeed an intelligence behind what we perceive of reality. Nobody has provided a reasonable counter argument.

So back to wisdom?
Is it wise for someone that truly wants to know God to reject a simple request for faith, belief, trust in it?
No, it is not wise.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by iambiguous »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:35 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:54 pm
attofishpi wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:33 pm

Well, iambiguous didn't understand what I meant by "being forced to read his posts" -- (like by someone holding a gun to our heads, as if anyone would read his posts of their own volition.)
Well, presuming that we do live in a free will world, try forcing yourself to avoid reading my posts. Of your own volition, for example.

Also, we post here and we really have no other way of knowing to what extent others are interested in what we have say other than in checking the number of replies and the number of views. And, in particular, regarding those threads which I created here, lots and lots and lots of folks seem interested in what I do post here.
The threads you create happen to be some of the main areas of philosophical enquiry, hence why they have large views and interaction.
One of my main gripes with you is that you 'commandeer' threads and posts copious amounts of your own musings which results in any other posts being reduced to falling into quicksand and lost.

iambiguous wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:54 pmOn the other hand, admittedly, lots of members here are also disturbed by the arguments I make. As I once noted to Prom75...
1] I argue that while philosophers may go in search of wisdom, this wisdom is always truncated by the gap between what philosophers think they know [about anything] and all that there is to be known in order to grasp the human condition in the context of existence itself. That bothers some. When it really begins to sink in that this quest is ultimately futile, some abandon philosophy altogether. Instead, they stick to the part where they concentrate fully on living their lives "for all practical purposes" from day to day.

2] I suggest in turn it appears reasonable that, in a world sans God, the human brain is but more matter wholly in sync [as a part of nature] with the laws of matter. And, thus, anything we think, feel, say or do is always only that which we were ever able to think, feel, say and do. And that includes philosophers. Some will inevitably find that disturbing. If they can't know for certain that they possess autonomy, they can't know for certain that their philosophical excursions are in fact of their own volition.

3] And then the part where, assuming some measure of autonomy, I suggest that "I" in the is/ought world is basically an existential contraption interacting with other existential contraptions in a world teeming with conflicting goods --- and in contexts in which wealth and power prevails in the political arena. The part where "I" becomes fractured and fragmented.
Unless, of course, I'm wrong.
I guess here I can touch on another gripe I have with you.

Wisdom?
It is clear on this forum and philosophy in general that comprehending 'God' including to discount the concept or provide evidence for argument, is probably THE main area of pursuit.
It is also clear that you are perturbed by my claim to know God as since you have been posting you have condescended to me with ad hominem attacks and provided nothing to counter statements I make about this entity. I think also since I admit to all many times, I have never formally studied philosophy, nor have read much of the vast amount of literature on the subject. An analytical logical mindset is KEY to philosophical enquiry and as a qualified systems analyst\programmer I assure I am not limited in that capacity thus keep your condescension and ad hominem attacks out of our little interactions, and we'll get along just fine.

It is said that the one making the claim is required to provide the evidence.
Well, I have put together empirical evidence that is viewable to all that in my opinion, proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is indeed an intelligence behind what we perceive of reality. Nobody has provided a reasonable counter argument.

So back to wisdom?
Is it wise for someone that truly wants to know God to reject a simple request for faith, belief, trust in it?
No, it is not wise.
:roll:
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

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..and that's your counter.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by iambiguous »

Sorry.

Once I conclude that someone is a pinhead, I do tend to keep reminding them of that.

Others here, however, might find you to be quite insightful. And, sure, if they are willing to note why they do, I might change my mind.

8)
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

Post by attofishpi »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:15 am Sorry.

Once I conclude that someone is a pinhead, I do tend to keep reminding them of that.

Others here, however, might find you to be quite insightful. And, sure, if they are willing to note why they do, I might change my mind.

8)
I care very little of your opinion of me, it was your engagement that I was interested in.

It's rather sad that people need group consensus to sway their opinions, it only shows they lack character.

8)
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

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Why Camus Was Not An Existentialist
Greg Stone presents the evidence.
So what is existentialism, and why does Camus not qualify? In simple terms, Sartre believed that existence precedes essence; Camus however contended that essence precedes existence. That is to say, in Sartre’s bleak cosmos, man becomes conscious primarily of his existence as a free agent, and is then condemned to forge his own identity – his essence – in a world without God.
What then is this essence that Camus believed preceded existence...absurdism?

Is or is not the human condition essentially absurd?

No, seriously, what is essentially true about human interactions in regard to our moral, political and spiritual values?

As for Sartre, what I'd give to have him around today responding to my own arguments here. From my frame of mind, what makes the human condition bleak is that in a No God world we interact based on all of the variables in our lives that we do not either fully grasp or control. And, in fact, in regard to conflicting goods, a fractured and fragmented "self" seems entirely reasonable to me.

"Hell is other people" precisely when they objectify us. When they demand of all others that they embrace the same essence. Then the "or else" part.
Camus, on the other hand, was willing to posit legal rules so absolute that they could be said to point to ‘essences’ – among them a belief that almost all violence is immoral. Therein lies the foul: dogmatic principles for living, no matter how well intentioned, are not ‘existential’.
Did he believe that? And, if he did, how on Earth did he reconcile it with the world that we actually live in? Violence is everywhere. And, in part, because some who do believe that essence is prior to existence are hellbent on including and excluding others in their own "my way or the highway" dogmas. And if one of them is hellbent on coming after you, how can a violent reaction be immoral then?

As for these factors...
Although Camus is invariably linked with Sartre, whose name is synonymous with existentialism, they were an odd couple, who clashed like Voltaire and Rousseau, or Verlaine and Rimbaud. Sartre was tiny, plump, and ugly; Camus tall, elegant, and handsome: Sartre played Quasimodo to Camus’ Humphrey Bogart. Sartre famously described man as a “useless passion”; Camus described himself as a man of passion. Sartre felt most at home in the dark cafés of Paris; Camus in the blazing sunlight of the Algeria of his childhood. Sartre wrote at Mozartian speed; Camus at Beethoven’s tortured pace.
...you tell me.

There are the truly personal components of our lives -- looks, demographics, experiences, relationships, etc. -- that will always set us apart from others. The facts of life.

And then the components rooted far more in dasein. And then "the gap" and "Rummy's Rule".
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

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Why Camus Was Not An Existentialist
Greg Stone presents the evidence.
Their political differences spilled into public view in 1952, in the pages of Sartre’s newspaper Les Temps Modernes. By this time, Sartre’s views had evolved to include support for communism, which Camus regarded as the extension of a harsh Teutonic tradition stretching from Hegel to Marx, and reaching a perverse conclusion in Stalin’s labor camps. He decried Marx’s theory of history, dialectical materialism, and its use by communists to “authorize any excess” in their quest for a classless society. In his view there are no privileged executioners.
Few things get trickier than this in regard to our value judgments. The part where in any particular community, state, nation, etc., "I" ends and "we" begins. Camus might have been less inclined than Satyr to focus in on political economy, but that does not make the arguments from those like Marx and Engels go away. Capitalism as a historical phenomenon had a profound impact on how we came to view the world around us. It's just that some [like the Objectivists and the Libertarians] attempt to reconfigure it as a historical component of the human condition into a "metaphysical" philosophy of life.
In his fashion, Sartre also opposed Stalin’s methods – while at the same time claiming that mass imprisonment in the Soviet Union was not as bad as one lynching in the United States. He objected, however, to the exploitation of Stalin’s labor camps by the ‘bourgeois press’ to fuel their anti-communist propaganda.
Here, however, it's always possible to make a distinction between Communism as those like Marx envisioned it and how those like Stalin practiced it. And, in fact, the "bourgeois press" has always been around to turn the Commies into plain old "terrorists".
But after Camus’ taunt that Sartre was a detached intellectual who merely pointed his armchair at history, Sartre stabbed back: “My dear Camus: our friendship was not easy, but I will miss it… I don’t dare advise you to go back to Being and Nothingness, since reading it would be needlessly difficult for you… You are only half-alive among us.” Privately, Sartre characterized Camus as “a kind of schoolteacher, worthless in philosophy.”
Back again to political economy. From Sartre's frame of mind there is simply no getting around the "class struggle". Marx and Engels may have been largely didactic in exploring the means of production as the center of the universe, but to dismiss "dialectical materialism" as that which "detached intellectuals" embrace is, to say the least, awash with irony.
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Re: Existentialism is a Humanism by Jean-Paul Sartre

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The Absurd Heroics of Monsieur Meursault
Alex Holzman asks what a hero is, and if Camus’ infamous character qualifies.
Heroics lie near the heart of both literary and historical culture. Something about the ‘greatness’ of heroes lends context to and brings to vivid life the events in which they took part and often come to represent. They are anchors in the sea of history, often cast by desperate people; and like an anchor, they often alter the course of the vessel.
Of course: your heroes or mine? Our course or theirs?

When has that ever not been the case when the discussion shifts from, say, saving lives to taking them?

Who are the heroes now in the Gaza Strip? Or in Ukraine? Or in the abortion wars?
Heroes, fictional or otherwise, are quite diverse. We revere Odysseus for his guile and tenacity, Atticus Finch for his justness and morality, and Christ for his self-sacrifice; others we exalt for their military exploits, ethical guidance, ideological commitment, civic service, or rebelliousness.
Tell that to the Romans or the racists or the Muslims and Jews.

As for "military exploits, ethical guidance, ideological commitment, civic service, or rebelliousness" isn't it true that over and again there are two or more conflicting renditions of what exactly they entail?

Thus...
Heroes can be controversial – perhaps even necessarily so for non-fictional heroes. Neither Caesar nor Napoleon were without fault, to say the very least, yet they command a place of respect in the annals of history. Why is this the case? What do heroes capture in people’s minds that us historical wallflowers cannot?
Of course, heroes often put their very lives on the line. That's why they are seen as heroes. We ask ourselves, "would I do that? would I risk my own life?"

And then with fictional heroes the circumstances are concocted by a particular author with his or her own moral and political values to champion and defend.

In fact, that's the part that many existentialists emphasize. In a world bursting at the seams with contingency, chance and change.
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