Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

[Constantine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4jOKPpWDr0

TikHistory is a British historian best known for his WW2 coverage of the Stalingrad, but recently has been branching out into the origins in Neo Pagan and Gnostic circles in Europe in the early 20th century that the various parts of the Nazis movement grew out of.

He has several episodes out. He is just now reading into Nietzsche.

His own personal philosophy in Anarcho-Capitalism, and I suspect he is a atheist.

[Iwannaplato]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4jOKPpWDr0

TikHistory is a British historian best known for his WW2 coverage of the Stalingrad, but recently has been branching out into the origins in Neo Pagan and Gnostic circles in Europe in the early 20th century that the various parts of the Nazis movement grew out of.

He has several episodes out. He is just now reading into Nietzsche.

His own personal philosophy in Anarcho-Capitalism, and I suspect he is a atheist.

He's interesting, thanks for the video. I think your suspicion that he's an atheist is correct. The whole society is like a deity argument seems pretty much based on the idea that we make up the idea of society, as we do deities, and it's not a real thing. It's nice to see Marx and Hitler shown to have similar roots. I think there is some truth to Marx's analysis of problems, but his solutions are, well, poor in the extreme. And I like the looking at how whatever -ism you are dealing with, how the -ism tends to want you to sacrifice for some collective and I think this applies well to both left and right ideologies, though in quite different ways. The right tending towards shame-based sacrifice and the left towards guilt-based sacrifice. Both trying to keep you in line and, ultimately, hating yourself.

[Wizard22]

Interesting, I'll check this out

[Constantine]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fGUq3V8kl30

[Constantine]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PMyzTnIessE

Mostly quotes Tik took focusing on gnostic quotes Hitler made.

[Maia]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00JJ9QOW6

The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust

+++In 1935, Heinrich Himmler established a Nazi research institute called The Ahnenerbe, whose mission was to send teams of scholars around the world to search for proof of Ancient Aryan conquests. But history was not their most important focus. Rather, the Ahnenerbe was an essential part of Himmler's master plan for the Final Solution. The findings of the institute were used to convince armies of SS men that they were entitled to slaughter Jews and other groups. And Himmler also hoped to use the research as a blueprint for the breeding of a new Europe in a racially purer mold.+++

That's the link to the Kindle edition, by the way.

As a Pagan myself there's no use denying that Himmler could be considered a Pagan by some definitions, though as that book makes clear, the idea that Hitler was is false. In fact, Hitler often used to mock Himmler for his beliefs behind Himmler's back, and made a number of public speeches criticising Paganism and what we today would call New Age thought, on one occasion bitterly attacking the head of Himmler's research institute, the Ahnenerbe. One might think that to be publicly singled out by Hitler and attacked in a speech was not a particularly healthy situation to be in, but the individual in question was simply demoted by Himmler as a result, to be a mere head of department.

What the book does make clear, I think, is that a great deal of what we think of, when we think of Nazi Germany, originated with Himmler, rather than Hitler, and was influenced by his beliefs. This ranges from the details of the Holocaust itself, to his promotion of organic farming, rural communities and folk dancing. Not that Hitler was ignorant of what was going on, of course, since Himmler had to run everything by him, but the details were Himmler's.

So yes, Himmler, at least, though not Hitler, could be said to be a Pagan. This in no way implies that all Pagans are Nazis, since this is palpably untrue. Paganism is not a political philosophy and Pagans are perfectly capable of holding any political beliefs or none. The growth of modern Pagan thought in Germany and Austria from the late 19th century onwards is an interesting subject in its own right, but the equivalent growth in Paganism in English-speaking countries during the same time period took a very different path, even if it originated from the same, or very similar, impulses. For a history of the latter I would recommend The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft, by Professor Ronald Hutton.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07XVPC8XB

[Constantine]

It's impossible for all pagans to be Nazis as the stem of paganism is older than the nazis. Nobody for example would travel to New Orleans, confront a voodoo cabalist and call them Nazis. I highly doubt they had any exposure to the particular strand of "gnostic" paganism Hitler took from. My last link focuses on Tik's analysis of two of hitler's work, quotes from Mein Kampf and The Tabletop (which are recollections by others of what Hitler said, so less authorities than the former).

He has other videos digging through the early roots of English and European pagan gnostic circles in the early 20th century. It's still fairly new material to him and he hasn't touched too deeply upon nietzsche yet.

I myself knew of the pagan gnostic angle prior (stands out) but if I'm going to take time to read a gnostic work, it's going to be a classic rather than a revamped modern take first. But Tik is showing it's actually quite important to understand what motivated Hitler. This doesn't indite every last gnostic pagan either as many could of had sincere religious beliefs, however shallow (thinking in terms of weird theories involving Atlantis survivors in antartica) and could still be severely adverse or disgusted by other related movements, including the Nazis. The Nazis merely were the most prolific and successful of these groups in the 20th century, excluding of course their abrupt end when the allies came screaming in from all directions on them and built the United Nations.

I also thing Gnostic Pagan is the better term (Tik is terrible at selecting terms) because it avoids the headache of explaining what pagan properly means. Most aren't aware of the history, especially self proclaimed pagans. Sometimes even Christians fall under the usage historically. But the gnostic pagan only hits two eras far apart and context clearly indicates Hitler wasn't digging around in Jewish Nag Hammadi texts.

[Maia]

It's impossible for all pagans to be Nazis as the stem of paganism is older than the nazis. Nobody for example would travel to New Orleans, confront a voodoo cabalist and call them Nazis. I highly doubt they had any exposure to the particular strand of "gnostic" paganism Hitler took from. My last link focuses on Tik's analysis of two of hitler's work, quotes from Mein Kampf and The Tabletop (which are recollections by others of what Hitler said, so less authorities than the former).

He has other videos digging through the early roots of English and European pagan gnostic circles in the early 20th century. It's still fairly new material to him and he hasn't touched too deeply upon nietzsche yet.

I myself knew of the pagan gnostic angle prior (stands out) but if I'm going to take time to read a gnostic work, it's going to be a classic rather than a revamped modern take first. But Tik is showing it's actually quite important to understand what motivated Hitler. This doesn't indite every last gnostic pagan either as many could of had sincere religious beliefs, however shallow (thinking in terms of weird theories involving Atlantis survivors in antartica) and could still be severely adverse or disgusted by other related movements, including the Nazis. The Nazis merely were the most prolific and successful of these groups in the 20th century, excluding of course their abrupt end when the allies came screaming in from all directions on them and built the United Nations.

I also thing Gnostic Pagan is the better term (Tik is terrible at selecting terms) because it avoids the headache of explaining what pagan properly means. Most aren't aware of the history, especially self proclaimed pagans. Sometimes even Christians fall under the usage historically. But the gnostic pagan only hits two eras far apart and context clearly indicates Hitler wasn't digging around in Jewish Nag Hammadi texts.

I've listened to the last talk that you linked, and it's clear that the narrator doesn't think that Hitler was a Pagan, and says so, which I agree with. Hitler was apparently some sort of non-denominational monotheist, though certainly not a Christian. There's nothing specifically Gnostic there, though, which is dualistic, with a good god and an evil god of equal power, and is usually considered to be a heresy of early Christianity, influenced by Zoroastrianism. An essential feature of Gnosticism is that the material world, that is, nature, is the creation of the evil god, which, of course is in sharp contrast to Paganism, which regards nature as divine. According to Gnostic thought, the human soul is a divine essence of the good god, trapped by the evil god in the material world, from which it seeks to escape. It would be difficult to think of an idea that was more alien to Paganism, to be honest, which regards humans as an integral part of nature.

[Constantine]

The gnostic movement is neither monotheistic (it has always at least two gods, with the monotheistic one the lesser) nor inherently judea-christian (tends to be Platonic). There is usually a presumption of a soul, not always that all have the soul of the substance of the higher demiurge (the empericist would be ruthlessly mocked in many cases). Usually some sort of elect, or a masonic like schedule of ritualistic formulas you gotta go through to purify yourself. I'd point to a YouTube channel called Esoterica for videos on some of that.

I'd agree it is inherently dualistic. I'm a philosophical dualistic thinker but am monotheistic. 99.99% of philosophical traditions hold to some sort of dualism. That's why people like debating solipism. It tries to be logically non-dualistic. Fails, but tries.

Gnostic predate Christian. Mandeaens in Mosul, Basra, Lebanon and Turkey are Gnostic. Shia in Iran are Gnostic. These are the only two Gnostic religions, save maybe perhaps the Druze (it was a confused conversation I had with one) and more likely the Alawite, that survived antiquity. Everyone else was a reinvention. Mandaeans are closest to classical mainstream.

[Maia]

The gnostic movement is neither monotheistic (it has always at least two gods, with the monotheistic one the lesser) nor inherently judea-christian (tends to be Platonic). There is usually a presumption of a soul, not always that all have the soul of the substance of the higher demiurge (the empericist would be ruthlessly mocked in many cases). Usually some sort of elect, or a masonic like schedule of ritualistic formulas you gotta go through to purify yourself. I'd point to a YouTube channel called Esoterica for videos on some of that.

I'd agree it is inherently dualistic. I'm a philosophical dualistic thinker but am monotheistic. 99.99% of philosophical traditions hold to some sort of dualism. That's why people like debating solipism. It tries to be logically non-dualistic. Fails, but tries.

Gnostic predate Christian. Mandeaens in Mosul, Basra, Lebanon and Turkey are Gnostic. Shia in Iran are Gnostic. These are the only two Gnostic religions, save maybe perhaps the Druze (it was a confused conversation I had with one) and more likely the Alawite, that survived antiquity. Everyone else was a reinvention. Mandaeans are closest to classical mainstream.

The Mandaeans venerate John the Baptist, which links them with an esoteric tradition in Europe, which also placed John the Baptist higher than Jesus in its beliefs. This may have influenced the Freemasons, too, though I don't think it was particularly Gnostic. The Freemasons, for example, venerate the monotheistic god under the name The Great Architect of the Universe, which may sound a bit Gnostic, as in the demiurge, but is really more to do with the symbolism of stone masonry that the Freemasons fill their rituals with. They also have a lot of Old Testament symbolism, of course, centred around the building of Solomon's temple.

An interesting book on this, which goes into the Mandaeans and John the Baptist, and a lot else besides, is The Masks Of Christ: Behind the Lies and Cover-ups about the Man Believed to be God, by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince, a pair of authors that I would highly recommend on esoteric subjects. I think their research is far more interesting than their conclusions, though, which can be a bit sensationalist sometimes.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002TXZSF8

[Constantine]

That's actually part of the reason they might be gnostic, but the bigger reason is their parallels with gnostic texts, which are many. They even maintain the God Seth.

The Jesus vs John the Baptist issue isn't proof, but comes close to the Demiurge vs corrupt earthly God context. This however could just be taken from the tradition of God vs Devil, which has a known evolution, and that isn't gnostic. Most lean towards 3rd AD for the Mandaeans formation. I think their core pagan God pantheon well prior and they adapted, but that's just my hunch. They would just around the time of Christ.

But as noted, Hitler wasn't using real gnostic thought, because the neopagan pagan circles he was in didn't use it either. It wasn't a fringe known for critical scholarship. A actual orthodox pagan gnostic group isn't something I'd worry about. I'd be very hesitant around the make believe content that largely parallels the nazis stuff. If for no other reason than knowing some of those other people would perpetually show up and join in due to the familiarity of it all, and when people turn philosopher in these groups they will find a ready made philosophy from the 1930s sounding very familiar to them. So I'd recommend not this precise vein of neo paganism to anyone. Hitler pretty much trashed it. But that still leaves alot. Just the more authentic branches (as in what was done classically) involves more reading. Can't pull shit out of your ass and say you just communed with a Martian sage and he says everyone has to get naked now sort of stuff.

[Maia]

That's actually part of the reason they might be gnostic, but the bigger reason is their parallels with gnostic texts, which are many. They even maintain the God Seth.

The Jesus vs John the Baptist issue isn't proof, but comes close to the Demiurge vs corrupt earthly God context. This however could just be taken from the tradition of God vs Devil, which has a known evolution, and that isn't gnostic. Most lean towards 3rd AD for the Mandaeans formation. I think their core pagan God pantheon well prior and they adapted, but that's just my hunch. They would just around the time of Christ.

But as noted, Hitler wasn't using real gnostic thought, because the neopagan pagan circles he was in didn't use it either. It wasn't a fringe known for critical scholarship. A actual orthodox pagan gnostic group isn't something I'd worry about. I'd be very hesitant around the make believe content that largely parallels the nazis stuff. If for no other reason than knowing some of those other people would perpetually show up and join in due to the familiarity of it all, and when people turn philosopher in these groups they will find a ready made philosophy from the 1930s sounding very familiar to them. So I'd recommend not this precise vein of neo paganism to anyone. Hitler pretty much trashed it. But that still leaves alot. Just the more authentic branches (as in what was done classically) involves more reading. Can't pull shit out of your ass and say you just communed with a Martian sage and he says everyone has to get naked now sort of stuff.

Although I don't think Hitler himself was particularly interested, it's true that a lot of early Nazis were involved with the Volkisch movement, a Pagan revival that had began mainly in Austria. In addition to a strong emphasis on runes, they also believed in the superiority of the Germanic race, among other things. There's no doubt that this had a big influence on the early Nazi party, but, as I said before, the Pagan revival in German-speaking countries took a very different path to that in English-speaking ones.

Then there's the Thule Society and the Vril Society. The Thule Society met at a hotel in Munich and included many early Nazis, such as Hess, but again, notably, not Hitler. They believed that Atlantis, that is Thule, was located at the North Pole, and was the original home of the Germans. The Vril Society, though, is much more mysterious. Supposedly led by a medium named Maria Orsic, she was alleged to have been in psychic contact with aliens from Aldebaran, who gave the Nazis the knowledge of how to build flying saucers, among other things. On the other hand, it may not have existed.

Since there's undoubtedly a Pagan element in the formation of Nazism, in that sense, Hitler moved in the same circles, since he moved in Nazi circles.

[Wizard22]

From my understanding Gnosticism represents the ancient/pagan tribal wisdom and traditions of proto-Europeans before the rise and spread of Abrahamism, therefore pre-Christian, pre-Jewish, pre-Moslem. Pockets of resistance held out against the Græco-Roman domination, resisting Catholicism and European Crusades, but most were swept away and integrated (forcefully) into 'Christendom' as a whole. These 'Gnostics' reappeared when Abrahamism waned during certain decades or centuries of Christian rule in Europe, namely through Polytheism and the 'heathen' belief in Nature rather than 'God'. And what does "God" mean except for what the Papacy dictated, for so long? For over a Millennium.

Jews and Protestants, Eastern and Northern European Gnostics, formed an alliance, to combat Christian-Catholicism for a long while. I suspect this was the reason for Lutheranism, and the forceful seizure of Literacy by European pagans, after the 14th Century. A political tripartite division.

Thus it was not by the will of the European people...the peasants at least, that 'Literacy' "returned" to the European plebian classes and peons. It was because enemies against Catholicism looked for new avenues, ways, and methods of infiltrating into the fervent and fanatical 'Christendom' of Medieval Europe.

[Maia]

From my understanding Gnosticism represents the ancient/pagan tribal wisdom and traditions of proto-Europeans before the rise and spread of Abrahamism, therefore pre-Christian, pre-Jewish, pre-Moslem. Pockets of resistance held out against the Græco-Roman domination, resisting Catholicism and European Crusades, but most were swept away and integrated (forcefully) into 'Christendom' as a whole. These 'Gnostics' reappeared when Abrahamism waned during certain decades or centuries of Christian rule in Europe, namely through Polytheism and the 'heathen' belief in Nature rather than 'God'. And what does "God" mean except for what the Papacy dictated, for so long? For over a Millennium.

Jews and Protestants, Eastern and Northern European Gnostics, formed an alliance, to combat Christian-Catholicism for a long while. I suspect this was the reason for Lutheranism, and the forceful seizure of Literacy by European pagans, after the 14th Century. A political tripartite division.

Thus it was not by the will of the European people...the peasants at least, that 'Literacy' "returned" to the European plebian classes and peons. It was because enemies against Catholicism looked for new avenues, ways, and methods of infiltrating into the fervent and fanatical 'Christendom' of Medieval Europe.

Gnosticism is a phenomenon of the Classical world, with origins in the Middle East. It's not connected to the pre-Christian Pagan religions of Europe. Much later, elements of Gnostic thought found their way into esoteric traditions in Europe, but I still wouldn't call these Pagan. They more properly belong to ceremonial magic traditions such as the Golden Dawn, who were not Pagans, though they did influence the formation of Wicca, as did Freemasonry.

So there may be a bit of overlap, but that's about it.

[Wizard22]

I don't know about that.

Gnosis is connected to signs, symbols, and runes concerning the magical power of words. The first forms of human literacy were equated to Divine powers and among the Hellenic philosophers, "speaking with/to/through the gods".