Atheism

[seeds]

Are you coming from Theism or Atheism?

From Theism, of course.

But from a more logical form of Theism - one that views the creative locus of the universe (God) as being as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas or flies.

I'm talking about a form of "New Theism"...

It sounds like the "God" of your New Theism is rather the same as the God of Deism.
Natural Theism has it that matter is mindful (mindful matter) re "God/The Creator" and therefore there is no "distance" or "separation" between the creator and the created.

Does Deism insist that the universe is the literal mind of God?

If not, then it's not the same.

On the other hand, if it is indeed possible that all of the phenomenal features of the entire universe (including our bodies and brains) are created from the living (holographic-like) mental fabric of God's mind, as is depicted in this fanciful illustration...



...then I think it is safe to say that there is no distance or separation between the Creator and the created.

And that would be in the same way that there is no distance or separation between you (your inner "I Am-ness") and that of the apple image that just now appeared before your mind's eye at the mere mention of the word "apple," for it is literally created from the living fabric of your own mind.

The only exception to that premise is our minds themselves.

And that's because my theory suggests that our minds are completely autonomous relative to God's mind and will literally be born-out of God's mind (out of this universe) at the moment of death.

Indeed, just as we can look back into the past and see what seems to be distinct eras (plateaus) of humanity's spiritual development (again, as depicted in the illustration),...

...we (at least some of us) can now see that it is time to ascend to a new plateau.

Figuratively speaking?

Yes, figuratively speaking, in the sense that, again, by observing the past, we can see that humans have been gradually ascending to higher and higher plateaus (higher levels) of spiritual understanding.

However, I suggest that the real reason why humans are compelled to keep looking ↑ "upward" ↑ to find God...

(starting from a pyramid at ground level [Pharaohs] --> then upward from that to the top of a mountain [Zeus] --> then upward from that to the clouds [Jesus and his anthropomorphic Father], etc.)

...is not because God literally resides at the top of an actual mountain or somewhere in the actual clouds, but because God's true form is in a state of higher (incorporeal) consciousness. Which, again (as suggested earlier), is as far above the human level of consciousness as the human level of consciousness is above a fly's level of consciousness...




And that's why we keep looking ↑ "upward" ↑ to find God.

The problem is that from our present (corporeal) perspective, we can no more find and view God's true form by fishing around within the material universe, than we could find and view our human mother's true form while we were still held within the darkness of her womb.

Btw, do you understand the gist and point of the question I posed to AJ in response to his query as to why the truth of reality is not "...made totally plain..." to us?

If yes, then would you walk through the door in my little thought experiment?

Yes.

I did read what you wrote (yesterday) and my immediate thoughts were on reports of NDEs OOBEs and how these represent what to expect when ones human instrument dies.
Because the "door" in the thought experiment seems to be the same.

So - if such a door were to appear, I would suppose it is because my body has died....and walking (floating/zooming et al) through it appears to be something we will have no choice but to do.

No, the door in the thought experiment is not the same as the questionable and unverifiable experiences acquired via NDE's or OOBE's.

The door I proposed in the thought experiment...

(which, again, was offered in response to AJ's query as to why the truth of God and reality is not made "...totally plain..." to us.)

...represents a tangible (real and existent) portal through-which we (on this side of the portal) can literally see the absolute truth of what our post-death form and eternal destiny are going to be, of which I am suggesting are going to be wonderful beyond our wildest dreams.

Furthermore, not only does the portal reveal to us that the post-death destiny of all humans (no matter what) will be wonderful,...

...but also, that we are (and always have been) free to access it any time we wish without any fear of any sort of punishment for having done so.

And the fact that AJ himself, in his latest response to my little thought experiment said this,...

"...naturally, if actually presented with the case that you do present, obviously I would walk through the door...."

...clearly demonstrates what every rational human on earth would do.

And that, brother VVilliam, is the point of the thought experiment, for it presents at least one plausible reason as to why the possible truth of our ultimate destiny is intentionally hidden from us,...

...for, again, AJ himself has proven that if that one plausible truth wasn't hidden, then planet earth would be quickly drained of the very physiological means by which God awakens her very own offspring (new eternal souls) into existence.
_______

[Alexis Jacobi]

All I ask is that it be somebody who's reasonable to talk to, and just might plausibly have something a little relevant to say.

In your case, that's apparently too much to hope for.

Everyone, anyone, can put out there what he wants (“all I ask for”). What if I (or anyone) were to specify what they’d like from you? How would you respond?

I would not ask you to do yourself any differently than you do — you’d be inauthentic. You’d violate your “dharma”.

What is curious, from where I sit, is that you seem to believe that you decide what is “relevant”. I think it is a great topic to explore: What is really relevant?

Everyone has their sense of what this is.

All that I could say to you is that defining *what is relevant* (important, meaningful) is my primary activity.

I cannot, however, so reduce it as you are inclined to do.

[VVilliam]

Are you coming from Theism or Atheism?

From Theism, of course.

But from a more logical form of Theism - one that views the creative locus of the universe (God) as being as far above humans in scope and consciousness as humans are above amoebas or flies.

I'm talking about a form of "New Theism"...

It sounds like the "God" of your New Theism is rather the same as the God of Deism.
Natural Theism has it that matter is mindful (mindful matter) re "God/The Creator" and therefore there is no "distance" or "separation" between the creator and the created.

Does Deism insist that the universe is the literal mind of God?

If not, then it's not the same.

It sounds the same as in it is so far removed that humans minds appear not to understand it or connect with it...because it is "far above".

On the other hand, if it is indeed possible that all of the phenomenal features of the entire universe (including our bodies and brains) are created from the living (holographic-like) mental fabric of God's mind, as is depicted in this fanciful illustration...



...then I think it is safe to say that there is no distance or separation between the Creator and the created.

Yes - that is more aligned with Natural Theism than not.

The image though, portrays an "out" rather than an "above" There is out and in.

And that would be in the same way that there is no distance or separation between you (your inner "I Am-ness") and that of the apple image that just now appeared before your mind's eye at the mere mention of the word "apple," for it is literally created from the living fabric of your own mind.

Natural Theism has it that we don't "have a mind". Rather we are Mind, even that our conscious personalities may not fully comprehend what this signifies if unconscious to the deeper aspects of Mindfulness (such as the Jungian Archetypes).

The only exception to that premise is our minds themselves.

And that's because my theory suggests that our minds are completely autonomous relative to God's mind and will literally be born-out of God's mind (out of this universe) at the moment of death.

That is an interesting idea. One leaves Mind behind at the moment of death.
This is something atheists believe re the end of a human life. The belief means there is nothing more to experience.
However, Natural Theism has it that God/Creator et al doesn't "have a mind". Rather, it is The Mind.

This signifies that wherever we minds go and whatever we minds experience, we are not and cannot be separate from The Mind.

Indeed, just as we can look back into the past and see what seems to be distinct eras (plateaus) of humanity's spiritual development (again, as depicted in the illustration),...

...we (at least some of us) can now see that it is time to ascend to a new plateau.

There is no "ascending" because there is no "up".
We do not even know (re the reports of NDEs/OOBEs) that we actually exit The Universe at all. It may simply be that we experience The Universe differently once the human instrument (having died) no longer suppresses our perspective, since we also are informed that we humans only see a sliver of the frequencies which exist in The Universe.

Figuratively speaking?

Yes, figuratively speaking, in the sense that, again, by observing the past, we can see that humans have been gradually ascending to higher and higher plateaus (higher levels) of spiritual understanding.

However, I suggest that the real reason why humans are compelled to keep looking ↑ "upward" ↑ to find God...

(starting from a pyramid at ground level [Pharaohs] --> then upward from that to the top of a mountain [Zeus] --> then upward from that to the clouds [Jesus and his anthropomorphic Father], etc.)

...is not because God literally resides at the top of an actual mountain or somewhere in the actual clouds, but because God's true form is in a state of higher (incorporeal) consciousness. Which, again (as suggested earlier), is as far above the human level of consciousness as the human level of consciousness is above a fly's level of consciousness...




And that's why we keep looking ↑ "upward" ↑ to find God.

The problem is that from our present (corporeal) perspective, we can no more find and view God's true form by fishing around within the material universe, than we could find and view our human mother's true form while we were still held within the darkness of her womb.

The darkness is - explained as simply being unable to experience all that is The Universe, through the Human Form.
The reason we keep looking outwards (which is really what is occurring) has to do with the belief in an immaterial creator (supernatural) which is something Natural Religion sees no reason to accept as true.
The New Theism you are speaking of, appears to also believe in a supernatural realm outside of The Universe.

The position (Natural Theism) has it that the creator-cause is material (made of particles) and is mindful so the creator is an Eternal Entity of Mindful Matter (EEMM) not an Eternal Immaterial Entity Cause separated from its creation because of the matter it "created"

Btw, do you understand the gist and point of the question I posed to AJ in response to his query as to why the truth of reality is not "...made totally plain..." to us?

If yes, then would you walk through the door in my little thought experiment?

Yes.

I did read what you wrote (yesterday) and my immediate thoughts were on reports of NDEs OOBEs and how these represent what to expect when ones human instrument dies.
Because the "door" in the thought experiment seems to be the same.

So - if such a door were to appear, I would suppose it is because my body has died....and walking (floating/zooming et al) through it appears to be something we will have no choice but to do.

No, the door in the thought experiment is not the same as the questionable and unverifiable experiences acquired via NDE's or OOBE's.

The door I proposed in the thought experiment...

(which, again, was offered in response to AJ's query as to why the truth of God and reality is not made "...totally plain..." to us.)

...represents a tangible (real and existent) portal through-which we (on this side of the portal) can literally see the absolute truth of what our post-death form and eternal destiny are going to be, of which I am suggesting are going to be wonderful beyond our wildest dreams.

Furthermore, not only does the portal reveal to us that the post-death destiny of all humans (no matter what) will be wonderful,...

...but also, that we are (and always have been) free to access it any time we wish without any fear of any sort of punishment for having done so.

Whatever the door is, until it presents (like until Jesus returns) it remains a fantasy thought experiment so I prefer to go with what we do know from information we do have available to us. If the door appears to me, I will deal with that at the time that it does.

The fact that AJ himself, in his latest response to my little thought experiment said this,...

"...naturally, if actually presented with the case that you do present, obviously I would walk through the door...."
...clearly demonstrates what every rational human on earth would do.

AJ still recognises it as IF the door were to exist THEN yes - it would be interesting to step through it.

Since such doesn't exist though (except as an analogy for a type of mindful existence the human personality may have after death of its body) it is more a type of psychological device created as a form of hopeful escapism. Not harmful as such (if no dogma is attached to it) but not helpful either.

And that, brother VVilliam, is the point of the thought experiment, for it presents at least one plausible reason as to why the possible truth of our ultimate destiny is intentionally hidden from us,...

...for, again, AJ himself has proven that if that one plausible truth wasn't hidden, then planet earth would be quickly drained of the very physiological means by which God awakens her very own offspring (new eternal souls) into existence.

I don't see it as that plausible given the variety of nuances involved with an experience of a single human personality.

For one, each personality would take their baggage with them to this wonderful world and perhaps cause harm, so one would have to flesh out the details of this wonder-world as to how it would prevent that from happening while allowing every human personality type entrance.

One could write a whole sequence of books about it and the books could become best sellers and a movie made of it (with sequels) and even a religious dogma formed around it, but for now I would have to say that such a door will not appear to the world so that all human beings can dump this one and have that one, perhaps primarily because, I don't see what such will accomplish for the individual human personality that will be lasting and meaningful?

So we work with what is available...and use the time here to develop and grow even in the face of great hardship and atrocity.

[Alexis Jacobi]

On my list:

The Nature of Metaphysical Thinking

By Dorothy M. Emmet. Pp. xi + 238. (London: Macmillan and Co., Ltd., 1945.)

MISS EMMET describes metaphysical statements as statements about the real which transcends experience. Her view in brief is as follows: There is a real world of which we are part and to which in our living we are responsive, but of the nature of which we have no direct experience. Nor have we any means of characterizing it as it is in itself, since in all our awareness, whether through sensing or through reasoning, what is displayed is rather our responses to it than its own nature. In this sense the real transcends experience.

[promethean75]

"Metaphysical world.- It is true, there could be a metaphysical world; the absolute possibility of it is hardly to be disputed. We behold all things through the human head and cannot cut off this head; while the question nonetheless remains what of the world would still be there if one had cut it off." - Nietzsche, Fredrich

See what he did there? He's made this alleged metaphysical world dependent on the mind. What relevance would any thing-in-itself have if its accessibility depends on the very thing that makes it inaccessible? And yet if that thing, the mind, is removed, there is no point or purpose for metaphysical knowledge of any sort, anyway. Boom.

We cannot get beyond appearances.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Another interesting factor — when thinking on the irreconcilable differences that always seem to present themselves in these interchanges (here) — is that The World around us has entered into warfare. The stakes are? (….) I cannot gain clarity about what (what really) is being fought over.

Perceptions (descriptions) like

Things fall apart / The centre cannot hold

keep recurring. Hasn’t the awareness of *this* (whatever this is) been going on for a long while? (Richard Weaver perceived that strong signs of decadent nihilism were evident even as the battles of WWII won “freedom”).

Speaking of dharma — it seems that the dharma (necessary tendency) of our present (on our Occidental Islands) is to be in a state of free-fall.

And how, when *everything* is falling down can one hope to assemble a coherent unifying picture which would (wouldn’t it?) require a cohesive metaphysical picture which, redundantly, is impossible because everything is falling down.

[VVilliam]

Points re Natural Philosophy/Natural Theism

1. It is the Eternal Entity of Mindful Matter which created The Universe bubble.

2. The EEMM was able to create The Universe bubble from its own makeup, because the makeup of the entity is (consists of) Eternal Mindful Matter.

3. The EEMM has never been "timeless" in any way except in the sense of being eternal.

There has always been movement with the EEMM and opportunities to create spaces where time can be experienced. The Universe was thought about and was designed by the EEMM to achieve this, doing so from the mindful matter the EEMM consists of.

There is no reason to think that it is logical contradiction that The Universe needn't have been created by an immaterial timeless entity.
Therefore, there is no logical need for an immaterial entity having to first exist which never experienced time or material and thus had to create other immaterial entities (Minds) and material entities (The Universe) outside of itself.

[seeds]

And that, in essence, is the Bible's vague and inimitable way of stating why the truth of reality cannot be "...made totally plain..." to us, and is thus protected by that metaphorical flaming sword "...lest we put forth our hands, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."

Indeed the "flaming sword" is simply emblematic of how important it is that the truth of our ultimate destiny is kept hidden from us so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely.

Anyway, again, AJ, if it were "...made totally plain..." to you that not only would it be safe for you to walk through the doorway, but also, in doing so, your true and eternal form will be revealed to you (and it will be amazing),...

...would you walk through the door?

If you propose such a *door* I would have to understand that you have *walked through it*. Otherwise what would you be talking about? A speculation? A wish?

I'm still here, aren't I?

So, obviously, I haven't walked through the door (which, of course, is a euphemism for suicide).

However, as I clearly explained in my "Burning Bush" thread,...

viewtopic.php?t=41452I

...I do feel as if I have stood on its threshold and looked through it.

I also stated that I am 99.99% certain that what I saw is true.

Nevertheless, it is not only that 0.01% of remaining doubt that keeps me on this side of the door,...

...but also, by reason of what was imparted to me by what I was allowed to see, I am compelled to stick it out here on earth with my fellow boneheads in an effort to help in whatever way I can, and that is especially in the realm of helping to alleviate world hunger.

The *question* you ask is really a statement you are making.

And, naturally, if actually presented with the case that you do present, obviously I would walk through the door.

And like I said to VVilliam, with that honest (and rational) admission, you have just proven why the truth of reality is not "...made totally plain..." to us, and why the Cherubim and the "flaming sword" will forever guard the "real secret" as to why we must not be allowed to, again,...

"...put forth our hands, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever..."

But what you are trying to point out, it seems, is that therefore people remain in this realm of woe do so through choice. Thus: there is a *key* that will open the lock.

No, not by choice, but by the need of the earth and the universe to function as a "womb-like" setting in which God uses human bodies and brains to facilitate the birth of new human souls, which, in truth, are her literal familial "offspring."

I understand the use of abstract pictures (your diagrams) for didactic purposes. And perhaps what you are trying to refer to is some variation on the notion that if we have incarnated here that we can, if we really and truly desire to, dis-incarnate out of this plane and onto some other plane where our children will not starve (for no good reason) or we won't be rounded up and put into prison camps.

That is one of the fundamentals of yoga philosophy. And, in a more crude way, it is also (I think) the essential picture offered by Christianity. It is a derivative of the idea that you are here because of some fault. In Vedanta they might say that the Eternal One fragments into individual souls in a grand game through which each soul realizes itself and then *returns*. Or as I say: that the science of yoga is a science of learning how to dis-incarnate from this realm of woe. Just as you got yourself into this fix, so you can work (or *realize*) your way out of it.

Although I would never say never to any plausible alternative,...

...I nevertheless reject the concept of reincarnation, for not only does it not offer any explanation as to how individual souls (individual "I Am-nesses") are, as you say, "fragmented off of the Eternal One",...

...but, in the end, it is nothing more than a form of existential nihilism in which life offers no logical (eternal) purpose for us as individual minds/souls, other than having to endure innumerable (often horrible) trips in-and-out of matter ("samsara") in order to finally achieve what some believe is a state of eternal oblivion.

Indeed, if release ("moksha") from the cycle of samsara is the goal of reincarnation, which according to some interpretations is an "extinguishing" of the human consciousness,...

...then what's the point of being awakened into existence in the first place?

As far as I am concerned, the "old paradigm" concept of reincarnation is just another one of those proverbial "rafts" that will be abandoned on the shore of death...


_______

[Dubious]

Things fall apart / The centre cannot hold...

Stability or any pseudo-version of it is only temporary, a truth neither deep nor profound or particularly poetic.