PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:23 am Elsewhere, VA claims that morality is an objective fact of human nature. And this is rubbish.

1 The expression objective fact is a redundancy, because there's no such thing as a subjective fact.

2 The existence of an identifiable so-called human nature is unsubstantiated and hotly disputed.

3 The constitution of so-called human nature is notoriously variously described - because factual assertions about human nature are notoriously unfalsifiable. The supposed inherent moral goodness of humans is as unsubstantiated as the supposed inherent moral badness of humans - or our inherent moral neutrality.
The main issue of the above is about the Nature vs Nurture Debate.

Steven Pinker wrote,
The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature
therein he wrote;
If I am an advocate, it is for discoveries about human nature that have been ignored or suppressed in modern discussions of human affairs.
Why is it important to sort this all out? The refusal to acknowledge human nature is like the Victorians’ embarrassment about sex, only worse: it distorts our science and scholarship, our public discourse, and our day-to-day lives.

Finally, the denial of human nature has not just corrupted the world of critics and intellectuals but has done harm to the lives of real people. The theory that parents can mold their children like clay has inflicted childrearing regimes on parents that are unnatural and sometimes cruel. It has distorted the choices faced by mothers as they try to balance their lives, and multiplied the anguish of parents whose children haven’t turned out the way they hoped.

Throughout the twentieth century, many intellectuals tried to rest principles of decency on fragile factual claims such as that human beings are biologically indistinguishable, harbor no ignoble motives, and are utterly free in their ability to make choices.
These claims are now being called into question by discoveries in the sciences of mind, brain, genes, and evolution.
If nothing else, the completion of the Human Genome Project, with its promise of an unprecedented understanding of the genetic roots of the intellect and the emotions, should serve as a wake-up call.
-Preface
I believe PH skeptical position of 'Human Nature' is very archaic and primitive.

For me, "human nature" is scientifically objective being empirically verifiable and justified to the physical elements in the brain's neurons, neural correlates, neural algorithms, genes, atoms and quarks and other body parts.

Who agrees with PH's views?
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Here are some notes from Pinker's book re the rejection of human nature's innate features;

............
Pinker Chapter 2:
Boas’s students insisted not just that differences among ethnic groups must be explained in terms of culture but that every aspect of human existence must be explained in terms of culture.

For example, Boas had favored social explanations unless they were disproven, but his student Albert Kroeber favored them regardless of the evidence.

Heredity,” he wrote, “cannot be allowed to have acted any part in history.”27
Instead, the chain of events shaping a people “involves the absolute conditioning of historical events by other historical events.”28

Kroeber did not just deny that social behavior could be explained by innate properties of minds.
He denied that it could be explained by any properties of minds.
A culture, he wrote, is superorganic—it floats in its own universe, free of the flesh and blood of actual men and women:
  • “Civilization is not mental action but a body or stream of products of mental exercise….
    Mentality relates to the individual.
    The social or cultural, on the other hand, is in its essence non- individual.
    Civilization as such begins only where the individual ends.”29
These two Ideas—the denial of human nature, and the autonomy of culture from individual minds—were also articulated by the founder of sociology, Emile Durkheim (1858–1917), who had foreshadowed Kroeber’s doctrine of the superorganic mind:
  • Every time that a social phenomenon is directly explained by a psychological phenomenon, we may be sure that the explanation is false….
    The group thinks, feels, and acts quite differently from the way in which members would were they isolated….
    If we begin with the individual in seeking to explain phenomena, we shall be able to understand nothing of what takes place in the group….
    Individual natures are merely the indeterminate material that the social factor molds and transforms.
    Their contribution consists exclusively in very general attitudes, in vague and consequently plastic predispositions.30


And he laid down a law for the social sciences that would be cited often in the century to come:
  • “The determining cause of a social fact should be sought among the social facts preceding it and not among the states of individual consciousness.”31
Both psychology and the other social sciences, then, denied that the minds of individual people were important, but they set out in different directions from there.

Psychology [then] banished mental entities like beliefs and desires altogether and replaced them with stimuli and responses.
The other social sciences located beliefs and desires in cultures and societies rather than in the heads of individual people.

The different social sciences also agreed that the contents of cognition— Ideas, thoughts, plans, and so on—were really phenomena of language, overt behavior that anyone could hear and write down.
(Watson proposed that “thinking” really consisted of teensy movements of the mouth and throat.)

But most of all they shared a dislike of instincts and Evolution.
Prominent social scientists repeatedly declared the slate to be blank:
  • Instincts do not create customs; customs create instincts, for the putative instincts of human beings are always learned and never native.
    —Ellsworth Faris (1927)32

    Cultural phenomena…are in no respect hereditary but are characteristically and without exception acquired.
    —George Murdock (1932)33

    Man has no nature; what he has is history.
    —José Ortega y Gasset (1935)34

    With the exception of the instinctoid reactions in infants to sudden withdrawals of support and to sudden loud noises, the human being is entirely instinctless….
    Man is man because he has no instincts, because everything he is and has become he has learned, acquired, from his culture, from the man-made part of the environment, from other human beings.
    —Ashley Montagu (1973)35

    True, the metaphor of choice was no longer a scraped tablet or white paper.
    Durkheim had spoken of “indeterminate material,” some kind of blob that was molded or pounded into shape by culture.
    Perhaps the best modern metaphor is Silly Putty, the rubbery stuff that children use both to copy printed matter (like a Blank Slate) and to mold into desired shapes (like indeterminate material).
    The malleability metaphor resurfaced in statements by two of Boas’s most famous students: Most people are shaped to the form of their culture because of the malleability of their original endowment….
    The great mass of individuals take quite readily the form that is presented to them.
    —Ruth Benedict (1934)36

    We are forced to conclude that human nature is almost unbelievably malleable, responding accurately and contrastingly to contrasting cultural conditions.
    —Margaret Mead (1935)37

    Others likened the mind to some kind of sieve: Much of what is commonly called “human nature” is merely culture thrown against a screen of nerves, glands, sense organs, muscles, etc.
    —Leslie White (1949)38

    Or to the raw materials for a factory: Human nature is the rawest, most undifferentiated of raw material.
    —Margaret Mead (1928)39

    Our Ideas, our values, our acts, even our emotions, are, like our nervous system itself, cultural products—products manufactured, indeed, out of tendencies, capacities, and dispositions with which we were born, but manufactured nonetheless.
    —Clifford Geertz (1973)40

    Or to an unprogrammed computer: Man is the animal most desperately dependent upon such extragenetic, outside- the-skin control mechanisms, such cultural programs, for ordering his behavior.
    —Clifford Geertz (1973)41

    Or to some other amorphous entity that can have many things done to it: Cultural psychology is the study of the way cultural traditions and social practices regulate, express, transform, and permute the human psyche, resulting less in psychic unity for humankind than in ethnic divergences in mind, self and emotion.
    —Richard Shweder (1990)42
The superorganic or group mind also became an article of faith in social science.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:
Iwannaplato
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Iwannaplato »

I think it is pretty safe to say that that tabula rasa model is not correct.
The separated twin studies are pretty telling.
And while parents do change over time and learn from first borns, the radical differences between many siblings should lead most to be skeptical about tabula rasa theories. Babies are very different from each other, often, also
Skepdick
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:11 am I think it is pretty safe to say that that tabula rasa model is not correct.
The separated twin studies are pretty telling.
And while parents do change over time and learn from first borns, the radical differences between many siblings should lead most to be skeptical about tabula rasa theories. Babies are very different from each other, often, also
You can't draw any meaningful conclusions from any of those studies.

It's sufficient for chaos + butterfly effect to be true to render any A/B testing meaningless even if tabula rasa is true.
Iwannaplato
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Iwannaplato »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:15 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:11 am I think it is pretty safe to say that that tabula rasa model is not correct.
The separated twin studies are pretty telling.
And while parents do change over time and learn from first borns, the radical differences between many siblings should lead most to be skeptical about tabula rasa theories. Babies are very different from each other, often, also
You can't draw any meaningful conclusions from any of those studies.

It's sufficient for chaos + butterfly effect to be true to render any A/B testing meaningless even if tabula rasa is true.
How would that explain startling similarities between separated twin?
I can see it presenting an argument explaining, while not ruling out at all, the differing personalities of siblings.
But how does the butterly effect create convergence of traits in twins but not others?

And then...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ber-sense/
You have babies preference for faces to other objects and this includes highly abstracted symbols that are facelike compared to equally complex symbols that are less facelike.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4496551/
Not only do they prefer faces to other things, they prefer what most adults would call more attractive faces...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566458/
Something one might think was cultural.
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/n ... nds-study/
https://hub.jhu.edu/2015/04/02/surprise ... -learning/


I do think humans, compared to other species, are more plastic. More learning options.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:40 am I can see it presenting an argument, while not ruling out at all the differing personalities of siblings.
But how does the butterly effect create convergence of traits in twins but not others?
The butterfly effect creates divergence from small differences.
The attractor effect creates convergence from big diffdrences.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractor

Which traits; or combinations thereof converge or diverge is pretty complex to untangle.
Skepdick
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Skepdick »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:40 am I do think humans, compared to other species, are more plastic. More learning options.
Yeah, I am not one for absolutes either.

We aren't entirely nature; and we aren't entirely nurture but how much weight each one carries is anybody's guess.

And whether the sheer power of will has any effect on the weights - even less knowable.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:07 am Yeah, I am not one for absolutes either.
We aren't entirely nature; and we aren't entirely nurture but how much weight each one carries is anybody's guess.
And whether the sheer power of will has any effect on the weights - even less knowable.
The fact is, it is nature complementing with nurture that enable normal humans to be what they are.

The OP here is PH denied there is ever 'human nature' i.e. his claim;

PH: 2 The existence of an identifiable so-called human nature is unsubstantiated and hotly disputed.


Pinker began his Preface with this;
  • “NOT ANOTHER BOOK on nature and nurture!
    Are there really people out there who still believe that the mind is a Blank Slate?
    Isn’t it obvious to anyone with more than one child, to anyone who has been in a heterosexual relationship, or to anyone who has noticed that children learn language but house pets don’t, that people are born with certain talents and temperaments?
    Haven’t we all moved beyond the simplistic dichotomy between heredity and environment and realized that all behavior comes out of an interaction between the two?”
Well, PH is one of those in-the-silo guy who still believe the mind [brain] is a Blank Slate as proposed by John Locke.

The point is;
  • "This is not going to be one of those books that says everything is genetic: it isn’t.
    The environment is just as important as the genes.
    The things children experience while they are growing up are just as important as the things they are born with."
    ibid
One critical area is Epigenetics;
Epigenetics is the study of how your behaviors and environment can cause changes that affect the way your genes work. Unlike genetic changes, epigenetic changes are reversible and do not change your DNA sequence, but they can change how your body reads a DNA sequence.
https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/epigenetics.htm#:
Veritas Aequitas
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Why People are Against Human Nature

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Why are the anti-Human-Nature people so resistant to change and new knowledge.
Pinker wrote:And psychological theorists sometimes try to add moral heft to arguments for connectionism or other empiricist theories with warnings about the pessimistic implications of innatist theories.
They argue, for example, that innatist theories open the door to inborn differences, which could foster racism, or that the theories imply that human traits are unchangeable, which could weaken support for social programs.50
ibid
People like PH cannot even accept the human mind of human nature exists. Why?
The concept of mind has been perplexing for as long as people have reflected on their thoughts and feelings.
The very idea has spawned paradoxes, superstitions, and bizarre theories in every period and culture.
One can almost sympathize with the Behaviorists and social constructionists of the first half of the twentieth century, who looked on minds as enigmas or conceptual traps that were best avoided in favor of overt behavior or the traits of a culture.
People like PH are still stuck with the ideas prior to the 1950s, i.e. no human nature, no human mind ideologies; morality is within overt behavior and traits of a culture.
In the following chapter I will show that this new conception of human nature, connected to Biology from below, can in turn be connected to the humanities and social sciences above.
That new conception can give the phenomena of culture their due without segregating them into a parallel universe.

But beginning in the 1950s with the cognitive revolution, all that changed.
It is now possible to make sense of mental processes and even to study them in the lab.
And with a firmer grasp on the concept of mind, we can see that many tenets of the Blank Slate that once seemed appealing are now unnecessary or even incoherent

THE FIRST BRIDGE between Biology and culture is the science of mind, Cognitive Science.2
THE SECOND BRIDGE between mind and matter is neuroscience, especially cognitive neuroscience, the study of how cognition and emotion are implemented in the brain.
THE THIRD BRIDGE between the biological and the mental is behavioral genetics, the study of how genes affect behavior.
THE FOURTH BRIDGE from Biology to culture is Evolutionary Psychology, the study of the phylogenetic history and adaptive functions of the mind
Anyone here share the same views as PH?

p.s. all quotes are from Pinker's book.
Iwannaplato
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Re: PH: Human Nature is Non-Existent

Post by Iwannaplato »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:07 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 10:40 am I do think humans, compared to other species, are more plastic. More learning options.
Yeah, I am not one for absolutes either.

We aren't entirely nature; and we aren't entirely nurture but how much weight each one carries is anybody's guess.

And whether the sheer power of will has any effect on the weights - even less knowable.
Same page.
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