Materialism: How doubt could be real?

[Agent Smith]

Doubt, ex mea (humble) sententia, is ... I mean ... it's ... we have ... WTF

[bahman]

My first question is how you could have an undecided state in a deterministic universe.

Well, I answered that one. We experience being unsure of something. We have that quale. That quale happens when we don't find the answer immediately

So you agree that there are undecided states for the brain? You however didn't answer my question: How? The brain is a deterministic system. Isn't it?

My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever.

Because we have desires, needs, impatience and other processes that lead us to choose. IOW causes that lead to one action conclusion or even deciding not to keep thinking about it without coming to a conclusion, again based on our desires, needs, schedule, personalities etc. Just because a process takes time and has a not able to decide (actually 'not finished deciding') quale doesn't mean it's somehow frozen. It's just unfolding longer than in other decisions.

You never say here that both options (if there are two) are precisely as attractive as each other. But that's never the case, but it is telling that you don't even bother to say it. Nor do you say 'It must be perfectly balanced between two or more options or we would react immediately. No, we only need to experience some conflict in values, information, goals whatever. Some, not some perfect mathematical equality from which no one could extricate themselves. In a brain with 86 billion neurons and 40 - 130 billion glial cells (which we now know are involved in cognition etc), we have analogue influences and impulses from the endocrinal system. We have very large nerve batches which affect brain function and cognition in the heart area and the gut area.

The chances of a mathematically perfect balance is close enough to zero to call it zero. Especially given that other needs and desires are always pushing on us to make decisions and leave that particular focus. And our heartbeat and breathing and any outside stimuli are also buffeting the senses and cognition. IOW even if you had the mathematically perfect equilibrium that somehow magically freezes a brain, there are constant imbalances being thrown into the mix, even in a sensory deprivation tank, and the rest of the time from both inside us and outside us. Long focus is also tiring. And so on. We don't get stuck in loops. All sorts of things pull us out, even if we can't decide and don't need to.

The chance for the perfect balance between options is not zero otherwise we could not have doubt. A lack of knowledge can simply lead to an undecided state.

[bahman]

THe dilemma, if there is one, is in your over simplification.

Let's look at a simple causal event.
I throw a switch and the light comes on.
You seem to be claiming that materialism has to insist that the movement of the switch caused by my hand is the explanation of the event in materialist terms.
But this is so obviously not true.
How do you explain the situation if I throw the switch and nothing happens? I am sure you have done this yourself at some point in your life. Does this not indicate that the event is not just caused by your finger but by an infinite number of other things?

How about the spring in the switch holding potential energy; the quality of electrons to travel down copper wires; the quality of tungsten to glow when current passes through it; the generation of electricity in the sub-station, power plant, the gas being burned to run the turbines; why you want the light on - the sun dipping down over the horizon, the gook you want to continue reading being written by a good author; the fact that he had a supportive wife that meant he finished the book and a great publisher who saw his potential ; the fact the the publisher went to a great school that fostered personal development; the fact the Thomas Caxton began the English book publishing craze in his time, the fact that the earth cooled down enough for life to begin in the oceans.... Ad infiniten....
All of these are causes that led to the moment where the light came on, at that exact moment in the way it did.

Yes, all these causes are important but they belong to a very long past. Determinism as I formulated deals with an immediate future state that is a unique function of the current state.

No it is not. You are just wrong.

These are not just long term, they are also immediate.
And no determinism is NOT formulated as immediate causes.

Not only do you mischaracterize what I say, you also mischaracterise, what determinism is. Obviously you think it is easier to criticise after you caricature the idea first. This is called building a straw man.

Do you know what I mean by a state? A state is a particular condition that is determined by a set of parameters related to its parts. So when I say that a system is in a state S(t) I consider the particular condition of all parts too.

[bahman]

VERY EASILY.

Tell me how?

When 'you' have or are in doubt then that is how undecidedness exists in and with this One and ONLY determined Universe. But, like ALL things here, to understand 'this' FULLY 'you' need to learn and understand the definitions of words being used, FIRST.

Please define the thing that you are interested.

The ONLY 'system', which I am aware of, that can be in a so-called 'undecided state' are animals, and animals do NOT, again as far as I am aware, turn out of a 'determined state'. Although 'doubt' or 'undecidedness' can exist VERY EASILY, and VERY OBVIOUSLY, with animal bodies.

Tell me how?

Have 'you' ever had or been in doubt and/or ever been undecided?

If yes, then that is how.

But if no, then are you SURE?

I mean, how your brain can be in an undecided state if the neurons keep firing?

[Iwannaplato]

So you agree that there are undecided states for the brain?

Undecided is a quale. Yes, we experience indecision. Brains are not undecided as I explained above. I've answered your question a few times now in a few different ways.

My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever.

The chance for the perfect balance between options is not zero otherwise we could not have doubt. A lack of knowledge can simply lead to an undecided state.

Ok, I put some work into explaining, in a few different ways, why I disagree.
You didn't show the minimal respect of integrating what I wrote in ANY WAY AT ALL in your response. You simply repeated your position.
Perhaps no one has told you that repeating your position is not a response.
Some things that can offer both participants something:
1) criticize (and likely quote) a particular argument the other person made. Support your criticism with examples or deduction or induction or research or.....
2) ask for clarification
3) (this is very close to 1) explain why something your discussion partner said is not relevant.
4) Ask why something they said is relevant
5) Ask for examples
6) request justification for something other person has said.
7) add new support for your position and show (likely by quoting) what led you to include this
clarify something the other person seems not to have understood
9) ask questions about part of what the other person wrote.

That's a start.

Unfortunately I've experienced non-responses and repeating your position before with you. So, I'll make it easy for you. I'll stop participating in the conversation. This saves you the tiny little effort you put in writing non-responses.

Take care and bye.

[Age]

Tell me how?

When 'you' have or are in doubt then that is how undecidedness exists in and with this One and ONLY determined Universe. But, like ALL things here, to understand 'this' FULLY 'you' need to learn and understand the definitions of words being used, FIRST.

Please define the thing that you are interested.

Tell me how?

Have 'you' ever had or been in doubt and/or ever been undecided?

If yes, then that is how.

But if no, then are you SURE?

I mean, how your brain can be in an undecided state if the neurons keep firing?

But it is NEVER the brain that is in an 'undecided state'.