Perfection

[Harbal]

God is said to be the perfect being, and I once heard Jamie Oliver claim to have made the perfect omelette, but is there really such a thing as perfection? It seems to me that perfection is only a relative term, and only makes sense in relation to a specific, subjective point of view. And even when perfection is considered to have been achieved, how can the possibility of something a little bit better be totally dismissed. I think perfection is only a hypothetical state, and can never be more that something to aspire to.

And that is my less than perfect assessment of perfection.

[Iwannaplato]

God is said to be the perfect being, and I once heard Jamie Oliver claim to have made the perfect omelette, but is there really such a thing as perfection? It seems to me that perfection is only a relative term, and only makes sense in relation to a specific, objective point of view. And even when perfection is considered to have been achieved, how can the possibility of something a little bit better be totally dismissed. I think perfection is only a hypothetical state, and can never be more that something to aspire to.

And that is my less than perfect assessment of perfection.

Interesting. I guess it's what is meant by perfection. As annoying or perhaps paradoxical as it might seem I'd say that perfection must include what could be called flaws. An uttery symmetrical face, with both sides exactly the same, I think, would feel a bit odd, even if one was not conscious of the issue. I thought you were going to say the following:

It seems to me that perfection is only a relative term, and only makes sense in relation to a specific, subjective point of view.

I guess when we think of perfection, we might think sort of geometrically. The perfect circle.
I prefer Kandisky

to Noland....

and certainly to any perfect circle drawn by some AI.

Could one make a more perfect painting. Well, I like many artists better than Kandinsky, but I think perfection would be more like infinity. Infinitely + 1 (even a billion) = infinity.

I mean, I know this is babbling in a way. But I neither want to lose the word perfection nor think that, well, perfect things are perfect in the engineering drawing sense.

I don't know what could be better than a hummingbird. Like it flies to my window, hovers then shoots off. The next day I see a more perfect hummingbird? I dunno.

Something about the thing/person/being AND its relation to me is where the perfection lies. We're both responsible.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery

So, I am not with Michaelangelo...

The true work of art is but a shadow of the divine perfection.
Michelangelo

and more on team St. Augustine (and the oft forgotten in philosophical contexts-Taylor Swift)

This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections-Saint Augustine

I think the perfection of love is that it's not perfect-Taylor Swift

And then the otherwise mainly ignorable Marc Jacobs....

I don't love Photoshop; I like imperfection. It doesn't mean ugly. I love a girl with a gap between her teeth, versus perfect white veneers. Perfection is just... boring. Perfect is what's natural or real; that is beauty.
Marc Jacobs

These are my appeals to authority and that should say something about perfection that they are the authorities I am appealing to or would like to think I am, in any case.

[Harbal]

I thought you were going to say the following:

It seems to me that perfection is only a relative term, and only makes sense in relation to a specific, subjective point of view.

It's certainly what I should have said. Not to worry, I'm saying it now.

[Harbal]

I guess when we think of perfection, we might think sort of geometrically. The perfect circle.

Yes, I think "perfect" could legitimately be applied to a circle. Even if such a thing were not achievable in practice, the idea of a perfect circle makes sense, so it at least exists as a logical concept. As you suggest, the term does seem to have utility when applied to geometry.

[bobmax]

I agree that absolute perfection cannot exist.
Because it is precisely its lack that allows existence.

In fact, the Perfection would not allow any other existence than itself.
Perfection and imperfection cannot coexist.

The Absolute existing, showing itself, would cancel any relative.
Instead with its withdrawal, with its non-existence, it allows our existence.

Our existence is based on distinction, on negation.
While the Absolute, that is Perfection, is the negation of the negation.

[Harbal]

I agree that absolute perfection cannot exist.
Because it is precisely its lack that allows existence.

In fact, the Perfection would not allow any other existence than itself.
Perfection and imperfection cannot coexist.

The Absolute existing, showing itself, would cancel any relative.
Instead with its withdrawal, with its non-existence, it allows our existence.

Our existence is based on distinction, on negation.
While the Absolute, that is Perfection, is the negation of the negation.

I am suggesting that perfection is a faulty concept in most applications, so I'm not sure it's possible to legitimately construct an argument that incorporates it. Not that I remotely understand your argument.

[Impenitent]

it is true that one's perception and/or judgement of perfection is temporal at best...

neither is communal...

-Imp

[iambiguous]

In the either/or world perfection is certainly possible. A perfect game in bowling or in baseball. A hole in one in Golf. A 1600 SAT score. A 100 on a test in school.

On the other hand, in the is/ought world...?

[Harbal]

In the either/or world perfection is certainly possible. A perfect game in bowling or in baseball. A hole in one in Golf. A 1600 SAT score. A 100 on a test in school.

On the other hand, in the is/ought world...?

I don't know what perfect is meant to mean when applied to a game, but I don't think it is relevant, as I think the term is just being used arbitrarily. I am assuming that a perfect score would mean a maximum score, in which case it would be more appropriate just to call it that.

[iambiguous]

In the either/or world perfection is certainly possible. A perfect game in bowling or in baseball. A hole in one in Golf. A 1600 SAT score. A 100 on a test in school.

On the other hand, in the is/ought world...?

I don't know what perfect is meant to mean when applied to a game, but I don't think it is relevant, as I think the term is just being used arbitrarily. I am assuming that a perfect score would mean a maximum score, in which case it would be more appropriate just to call it that.

Well, arbitrarily in the sense that bowling and baseball and SAT scores are created by mere mortals. But you either can or cannot achieve perfection here. And for those who do, go ahead, see if you can convince them that's the wrong assessment of perfection.

No, my point still revolves more around those who insist that perfection can be achieved in regard to moral and political and spiritual value judgments as well. One of us or one of them. After all, if someone pitches a no hitter but walks a batter, or bowls a 299 game or has a 1599 SAT score, he or she is not likely to actually be shunned or punished.

Let alone sent to a re-education camp or an oven or to Hell for all of eternity.

[bobmax]

I am suggesting that perfection is a faulty concept in most applications, so I'm not sure it's possible to legitimately construct an argument that incorporates it. Not that I remotely understand your argument.

I agree with you!

What I'm trying to tell you is to try and take another step.
Because you notice how perfection is a limit concept.
That is, it is a concept that is necessarily in our mind, but at the same time it is not really usable.

There is, but not quite…
We can't really think it and yet we can't help it.
It is the insurmountable limit that marks the boundary between existing and being.

Living the limit, being able to stay on the border between the reassuring world that exists and what gives it meaning even though it doesn't exist.

This can give you a great opportunity.

[Harbal]

Well, arbitrarily in the sense that bowling and baseball and SAT scores are created by mere mortals. But you either can or cannot achieve perfection here. And for those who do, go ahead, see if you can convince them that's the wrong assessment of perfection.

No, my point still revolves more around those who insist that perfection can be achieved in regard to moral and political and spiritual value judgments as well. One of us or one of them. After all, if someone pitches a no hitter but walks a batter, or bowls a 299 game or has a 1599 SAT score, he or she is not likely to actually be shunned or punished.

Let alone sent to a re-education camp or an oven or to Hell for all of eternity.

Yes, I get your point, and I'm not suggesting that we ban the word "perfect". It's perfectly fine to use it informally, but I was thinking about when it is used in earnest, as when, for example, God is described as the perfect being.

[iambiguous]

Well, arbitrarily in the sense that bowling and baseball and SAT scores are created by mere mortals. But you either can or cannot achieve perfection here. And for those who do, go ahead, see if you can convince them that's the wrong assessment of perfection.

No, my point still revolves more around those who insist that perfection can be achieved in regard to moral and political and spiritual value judgments as well. One of us or one of them. After all, if someone pitches a no hitter but walks a batter, or bowls a 299 game or has a 1599 SAT score, he or she is not likely to actually be shunned or punished.

Let alone sent to a re-education camp or an oven or to Hell for all of eternity.

Yes, I get your point, and I'm not suggesting that we ban the word "perfect". It's perfectly fine to use it informally, but I was thinking about when it is used in earnest, as when, for example, God is described as the perfect being.

Used in earnest?

Of course, with God you are necessarily assuming that in regard to morality and spirituality, perfection is within reach.

And God could pitch a perfect game blindfolded.

[Harbal]

Used in earnest?

That's the word that came to mind, so I went for it.

[iambiguous]

Used in earnest?

That's the word that came to mind, so I went for it.

Perfect!