Why do innocent people suffer?

[dattaswami]

Why do innocent people suffer?




Mostly, the severe sins done on this earth are given punishments here only. The punishment given to a just born baby indicates only the sin done in the previous birth. Some religions do not believe in re-birth. In such case, it is the responsibility of those religions also to give the reason for the punishment given to the just born baby. Either you should say that God is cruel or the new born baby committed some sin in the previous birth. No religion blames God.

When the punishment is given by the judge in the court, the crime done by the criminal is not demonstrated in the court so that the public should know the details of the crime by visual means. The scripture gives the details of various punishments given to various sins. You can refer the scripture to know the sin committed by the criminal here by seeing the punishment. Even in the court, you know the crime informed through the judgement or can know directly from the constitution and infer the crime committed. You can refer the constitution to know the crime through the details of punishment.

The main point is that you are seeing only the latter part of the punishment and not the earlier part of the sin done either here or in the previous birth. Stop the attitude of criticizing the administration of God, which is always perfect. You say that some sinners live with happiness and some innocents are punished. This misunderstanding is also due to a lack of perfect analysis. The sinner is given some time for reformation. The punished innocent person was already given a lot of time and is punished now. You think that he is innocent since you do not know his background. Hence, all your analyses and conclusions are based on superficial and partial knowledge only.

[iambiguous]

Why do innocent people suffer?

Because God is a sadistic monster?

[Iwannaplato]

Why do innocent people suffer?
Mostly, the severe sins done on this earth are given punishments here only. The punishment given to a just born baby indicates only the sin done in the previous birth.

Well then, abortion has to be fine then. If the mother manages to abort the child, then that child needed that punishment. If she is stopped, then it didn't.

No aborted fetus can possibly NOT deserve being aborted.

No person murdered or raped did not deserve being killed or raped.

There are just rules in a game. You shouldn't do it, but in fact any killing will be just. Any rape must be just.

At least if we take this victim-blaming version of Karma as real.

It also entails a very strange free will. You are free, but if you try to harm ANYONE IN ANY WAY who does not deserve it, you will not succeed. If you ran out of the house in a rage and shot at random people on the street you would only hit people who deserve to be shot.
I don't understand what the concern is about good behavior. Whatever you do in this hilarious conception of Karma
cannot hurt anyone who does not deserve to be hurt. If you manage to steal something, they deserved to lose it.

If a terrorist blows up a plane and all die, every one of those people deserved to die and every relative and friend of the people on that plane deserved to suffer the loss of someone they loved.

Nuts, absolutely nuts. How anyone could worship a deity this insane is beyond my ken

[dattaswami]

Well then, abortion has to be fine then. If the mother manages to abort the child, then that child needed that punishment. If she is stopped, then it didn't.

No aborted fetus can possibly NOT deserve being aborted.

No person murdered or raped did not deserve being killed or raped.

There are just rules in a game. You shouldn't do it, but in fact any killing will be just. Any rape must be just.

At least if we take this victim-blaming version of Karma as real.

It also entails a very strange free will. You are free, but if you try to harm ANYONE IN ANY WAY who does not deserve it, you will not succeed. If you ran out of the house in a rage and shot at random people on the street you would only hit people who deserve to be shot.
I don't understand what the concern is about good behavior. Whatever you do in this hilarious conception of Karma
cannot hurt anyone who does not deserve to be hurt. If you manage to steal something, they deserved to lose it.

If a terrorist blows up a plane and all die, every one of those people deserved to die and every relative and friend of the people on that plane deserved to suffer the loss of someone they loved.

Nuts, absolutely nuts. How anyone could worship a deity this insane is beyond my ken

OK in such case what is your answer for the suffering of people in this world? like just born baby suffering, people born with handicap etc? Can you give your explanation for these?

[Iwannaplato]

OK in such case what is your answer for the suffering of people in this world? like just born baby suffering, people born with handicap etc? Can you give your explanation for these?

1) I am not pontificating on the nature of reality, here, in the manner you do, here. 2)I am not presented as nor do I present myself as an incarnation of God on earth.
Once one does both of these things, which you have done or had done for you, it seems to me one bears quite a bit of responsibility for what one says, especially when the implications of those ideas are very great.

In this case we have a view of Karma - a not uncommon one, sadly - that if anyone is victimized, they deserve this treatment, that it is the result of God in his infinite wisdom. That this horrible experience is a lesson from God to show them there own sins.

Imagine for a moment how that affects the rape victim, for example, and what kind of mistreatment it would be to say this if you were wrong. That if parents of a child that is raped are told that the child must have done something bad in a past life and this is on the authority of a guru, an avatar of the deity. This is a very important position you are taking. Not a small one, a huge one.

It is your position to defend and justify. Whether I could mine or not. Whether I have one or not.

I do have an explanation and it is something I prefer to keep private. It is not something I can demonstrate to others, certainly not here in a philosophy forum.
¨
But that doesn't matter. I am not putting myself forward as a rare incarnation of the deity. Whether or not I or someone else can explain the suffering in the world does not detract from the responsibility you have for justifying what is in fact a very cruel belief that all victims brought their suffering on themselves through past sins.

[dattaswami]

In this case we have a view of Karma - a not uncommon one, sadly - that if anyone is victimized, they deserve this treatment, that it is the result of God in his infinite wisdom. That this horrible experience is a lesson from God to show them there own sins.

You shall never say such truth to such victims, because it will increase their agony. Hence one shall instead console them by saying good words etc. Truth is very harsh and shall not be revealed overnight. The victim will get affected.

You shall not argue that if the omnipotent God is supporting justice, in this creation why so much injustice exists? The reason is that you are not omniscient to observe all the background of each soul to decide which is justice and which is injustice. With very limited observation of any soul, you can’t decide that this soul is good subjected to punishment and this soul is bad blessed by good fruits. When you observe a criminal being hanged to death, you sympathize him since you have not witnessed his previous crime.

A good person might have been punished by a bad person for the crime done by the former to the latter previously in this birth or in the past birth. After this incident, a good person receives good fruits and bad person receives bad fruits in course of time for their respective deeds. If the good person revenges against the bad person, everlasting chain results.

If one leaves revenge to God, the effected person will be highly compensated by God for his patience. If the sinner in previous birth is punished now, there is no place of revenge since the story ended there. You should not think that in this case God keeps silent in punishing the sin. Otherwise, if the sin is fresh and if the effected party keeps patient without revenge, the effected party is enormously compensated by God and the sinner is also enormously punished. Of course, God gives long time for the sinner to reform himself/herself and this delay is not to be misunderstood as defect of God. If the sinner is reformed, God will not punish him and the effected party shall not feel that injustice is done to it. If the sinner is punished, in what way the effected party is compensated? To feel that the punishment of enemy alone is the compensation of the effected party, it shows only foolishness. Hence, the administration of God is always perfect supporting justice, destroying injustice by punishment if the criminal is not reformed and compensating profusely the non-revenging effected party.

Draupadi was revengeful to punish Kauravas. Anyway, God Krishna is going to punish bad Kauravas for their fresh sin done towards good Draupadi. For the unnecessary revenge of Draupadi, God punished her by getting all her sons killed.

The understanding of the background of justice, injustice, profuse compensation for revengeless party and punishment for revengeful attitude will make you not to unnecessarily scold the world created by God. The revenge against sin belongs to the administration of God and not to the soul since God says “Revenge is Mine”. Patience of the effected party shall not be treated as inefficiency, which is going to give million times more punishment to the sinner, if the sinner is not reformed. This must be noted well by all sinners harming good people. If the administration is wrongly criticized, administrator is hurt. If the book is falsely criticized, the author is hurt. You must realize your limitation of knowledge before criticizing the creation of God.

Generally, people think that helping others is good and harming others is bad. The authority for this concept is “Paropakaarahpunyaaya, paapaayaparapidanam”. Here, the word ‘para’ means others as well as good people. We shall take the second meaning only here. Hence, it means that helping good people is for good fruit and harming good people is for bad fruit. Jesus did not harm the people, who harmed Him and by this, you shall not take the concept as that one should not harm others including bad people.

The context of Jesus was totally different. By such patient nature exhibited, He wanted that the cruel hearts of sinners shall melt and get reformed. If bad people are not punished, fear will not be there, which, at least, gives temporary reformation! When you are harming somebody, you can’t be the judge being the party. A neutral person, who is scholar of ethical scriptures, shall be the judge (alukshaahdharmakaamaah - Veda).

By revenge, your loss is not compensated at all. If you leave revenge to God, He will certainly compensate your loss. God looks to be silent against whom you want to revenge. For His silence, the reason is:- You might have harmed him previously or in the previous birth and your damage by him will end the story of action and reaction or God may be giving some time to him to transform before punishing him. You should not worry that he might escape punishment through becoming reformed. What is the loss for you if he is not punished since God already compensated your loss for your patience! If you have revengeful attitude to him, you are separately punished for your revenge. Draupadi and Subhadra were having revengeful attitude towards Kauravas, for which, both were punished by the loss of their children. Uttara left the revenge to God and hence, her issue (Parikshit) was protected and was made as the King.

Without understanding the background of the doctrine of deeds, don’t criticize God with impatience and earn a fresh sin that gives an additional punishment. Always think that God is omniscient and omnipotent and hence, His administration will never have even a hair split flaw.

[Iwannaplato]

You shall never say such truth to such victims, because it will increase their agony.

You have said it here on this forum!!! There are people here who have been victimized here on this forum. There are people with children and loved ones who come to forums like this.
You just said you should never say this to victims. But you do and have. How could you, someone presented as an avatar of God, not know that you have said this to victims, both here and in many other places.

Further, it is part of your doctrine. That doctrine goes out. Do you think people who take your opinions as God-given knowledge will not remember your words when in the future they are victimized. Or that people out there do not repeat these ideas and they spread to victims`?

Hence one shall instead console them by saying good words etc. Truth is very harsh and shall not be revealed overnight. The victim will get affected.

The victims ARE affected by these old untruths, every day, all around the world.

You shall not argue that if the omnipotent God is supporting justice, in this creation why so much injustice exists? The reason is that you are not omniscient to observe all the background of each soul to decide which is justice and which is injustice.

Nor are you omnicient and yet you preach that all victims are getting their just punishment from God.

You must realize your limitation of knowledge before criticizing the creation of God.

I do recognize the limitation of my knowledge. It is you who do not. It is you who cannot face your fear which is hidden in your binary schema: either all victims deserve their suffering OR God is a sadist. That binary schema shows your limited knowledge.

And you do not explain in your response here the silliness that I pointed out in my previous post.

The context of Jesus was totally different. By such patient nature exhibited, He wanted that the cruel hearts of sinners shall melt and get reformed. If bad people are not punished, fear will not be there, which, at least, gives temporary reformation! When you are harming somebody, you can’t be the judge being the party. A neutral person, who is scholar of ethical scriptures, shall be the judge (alukshaahdharmakaamaah - Veda).

You are not a neutral person.

By revenge, your loss is not compensated at all.

I am not in any way advocating for revenge.
This is a pattern with you. Much of your responses and sometimes all of your responses have nothing to do with what I am saying. And yet you are presented to the world as an enlightened being, an avatar for God.

Despite this, you cannot quite respond to points made, nor can you actually see the victims of crimes. You see your idea. The idea that must be true.

Without understanding the background of the doctrine of deeds, don’t criticize God with impatience

I am not criticizing God.
I am criticizing the idea you have of Karma and you for promotiing it, especially given they way you as a person are presented to the world and how you present your ideas.

[dattaswami]

You just said you should never say this to victims. But you do and have. How could you, someone presented as an avatar of God, not know that you have said this to victims, both here and in many other places.

Further, it is part of your doctrine. That doctrine goes out. Do you think people who take your opinions as God-given knowledge will not remember your words when in the future they are victimized. Or that people out there do not repeat these ideas and they spread to victims`?

To protect some innocent and good person, you can tell a lie. In such context, speaking truth is a sin. Lie is not the sin but harming a good person is real sin. If the mother does not speak this lie, the good and innocent child will not eat the food and its health will be spoiled. In such case, not speaking the lie is the sin. You cannot also say that since God’s ways are unknown, no explanation is needed. In such case, you cannot speak anything about God and only the ignorance about God will prevail as spiritual knowledge.

In the divine administration of God, be sure of one thing that there will not be punishment without previous crime. The Pravrutti(worldly life with following of justice) is very important, which is always the ultimate goal of God. God treats Nivrutti (loving and serving God) as a personal matter, which cannot conflict His official responsibility of the administration of His creation. Your sympathy is based on the external observation at present without knowing their back ground in the past. This statement may look very harsh but it is true. Truth is always harsh.

The protection from God comes only when you have not committed the sin and in such case praying and crying are not necessary. Since you do not know their sins, you may misunderstand like that. Since you do not know the behaviour of the souls in the previous birth, the external innocent appearance of a child may mislead you. Even if the re-birth is not believed, various sins are committed in the childhood also about which you do not have the perfect and complete knowledge.

Regarding the just born child, you have to accept the re-birth because you do not have an alternate answer from your side. Moreover, there are several incidents all over the world proving the concept of previous birth. The glorification of God cannot be the alternate answer since God is not so cruel that He punishes some innocent for His glory.

[dattaswami]

The victims ARE affected by these old untruths, every day, all around the world.

The injustice will never win because if it happens so in this divine rule of God, it is only blame to His administration. With the limited knowledge of this birth, you cannot decide the justice. In view of all the previous births and the deeds in the previous births, God gives judgment, which is perfectly justified in the wide range of all the previous births.

If you criticize God, God will leave you with the due justice as per the cycle of deeds. If you are a devotee of God, God will compensate your financial loss through some other way at a later date.

If you are wasting the present time in worry, the compensation of finance may be done but you cannot have the compensation of the lost past time. Hence, you should take the help of the spiritual knowledge and try to be happy even in the misery so that you will not loose both time as well as money.

If you are worried, you cannot concentrate on God and your devotion also becomes week and your financial compensation in the future also gets correspondingly reduced.

Therefore, you must be brave in the troubles without any worry and maintain the concentrated devotion to God.

[Iwannaplato]

To protect some innocent and good person, you can tell a lie. In such context, speaking truth is a sin. Lie is not the sin but harming a good person is real sin. If the mother does not speak this lie, the good and innocent child will not eat the food and its health will be spoiled. In such case, not speaking the lie is the sin. You cannot also say that since God’s ways are unknown, no explanation is needed. In such case, you cannot speak anything about God and only the ignorance about God will prevail as spiritual knowledge.

Again, you are not responding to the point I made. You are in fact saying this to people who have been victimized. Here you are presenting other things one could do in relation to a specific person who has been victimized. But the fact is that here and elsewhere you tell people that anyone suffering anything, including children and newborns, deserve what they experience as punishment for past sins.

I understand that if your devotees bring a woman up to you who has just been raped, you are not going to tell her that she deserved to be raped.

I am saying that you spread you idea, here over the internet, and it comes into contact with people who have been raped and tortured and suffered other forms of torment.

How could you not know this?

In the divine administration of God, be sure of one thing that there will not be punishment without previous crime.

You have already said this.

Obviously I understand that you believe this and obviously I understood that you believed it. I said that you believed it.

Regarding the just born child, you have to accept the re-birth because you do not have an alternate answer from your side. Moreover, there are several incidents all over the world proving the concept of previous birth. The glorification of God cannot be the alternate answer since God is not so cruel that He punishes some innocent for His glory.

I am not questioning rebirh or reincarnation. And here you are just repeating what is in fact your limited binary thinking on the topic.

Here again you wrote a post that did address the points I made, that brought up irrelevent issues, that repeated your certainty about your position which I obviously already knew and which repeats your binary thinking.

[Iwannaplato]

The injustice will never win because if it happens so in this divine rule of God, it is only blame to His administration.

Just repeating yourself as if I do not know your position.

With the limited knowledge of this birth, you cannot decide the justice.

But you in your limited knowledge decide that in every case around the world the raped and tortured deserved what they got.

You're wrong, but further you contradict what you say to me.

In view of all the previous births and the deeds in the previous births, God gives judgment, which is perfectly justified in the wide range of all the previous births.

With your limited knowledge and I would add inability to see people rather than deduced ideas, you cannot know this.

If you are wasting the present time in worry, the compensation of finance may be done but you cannot have the compensation of the lost past time. Hence, you should take the help of the spiritual knowledge and try to be happy even in the misery so that you will not loose both time as well as money.

And suddenly you are talking about money!???????????????????????????????????????

Here you are presenting yourself as an exception to limited knowledge, but you constantly bring irrelevant points into the discussion as if they are relevant.

Therefore, you must be brave in the troubles without any worry and maintain the concentrated devotion to God.

There can certainly be bravery in relation to money problems, but there is a kind of bravery you are missing.

It is a very cruel idea you are passing along. YOu cannot respond to points I make or don't respond, in any case, for reasons of your own. You cannot seem to consider that your own knowledge might be limited.

I will probably respond occasionally especially when you present other pernicious ideas as truth, but your posts are really quite toxic.

Perhaps at some point you will mull over the assumptions you have that means you think
either God is a sadist
or
everyone who is raped and tortured and murdered deserved that experience.

A secret. It gets easier to see your assumptions if you can once and for all feel your fear that the first option might be the case.

And then you might actually see the past lives of the victims you are blaming in your ignorance.

[dattaswami]

I understand that if your devotees bring a woman up to you who has just been raped, you are not going to tell her that she deserved to be raped.

I agree that to a rape victim you shall not reveal this truth straight away. Because it will lead to depression in her. I will give an example from Bible. In Bible there is an incident in which a born blind person was healed by Jesus. Then people asked whether is it due to his sin that he had born blind, JEsus told for the glorification of the God he was born blind!The glorification of God cannot be the alternate answer since God is not so cruel that He punishes some innocent for His glory. When the blind man, who was cured by Jesus, depressed about his past sin, Jesus used the concept of glorification of God to bring confidence and courage in to his mind. That cannot be taken as the real concept. A false concept can be used to bring good true effect.

God will never do injustice. His acts are always just only. The person is born blind due to his own previous deeds only, and God is not at all responsible for that. This is the truth. This particular incident can be analysed in two ways. In the first case, the person would have completely undergone the results of his bad deeds by the time he saw Jesus. The cure by Jesus would have coincided with the end of punishment for his previous deeds. In the second case, Jesus would have actually carried the sins, which are supposed to be suffered by that blind person.

Also, by such verses, Jesus tested the attitude of the blind person towards Him. If he is a real devotee, when Jesus spoke that he is born blind for the glory of God, he would have accepted that statement thinking that it is the wish of God. In this case, the person is a real devotee of God and he never criticized God by hearing those statements from Jesus, rather he praised Him.

Infact, Jesus carried the sins of that person, during His crucifixion. The thorns, which were put on His head, pierced His eyes also, by which Jesus carried the sins of the blind person. This incident shows that God is always kind and He comes in human form and carries the sins of His People on to Him. His people are those who love Him alone without any desire or expecation.

[Iwannaplato]

dattaswami wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:02 am
You shall never say such truth to such victims, because it will increase their agony.

You and other gurus have done this time and time again. Including here in this forum. If you can't understand that you have done this, it's very odd. You do realize that people who have experienced things like rape, childhood sexual abuse, violence, etc. participate in online forums? Perhaps not. For someone with unlimited knowledge, that's very odd.

You have also said it to people who will suffer abuse and violence after you say this to them. Or will have loved ones who suffer abuse and violence and they will think 'Oh, my guru said they must have sinned in the past.' And before you tell me, for no good reason, that you would tell them not to say this to their loved ones, that is not the point. It is already there in their own minds and this affects the way they view their loved ones. If you were an expert in humans, you would know this. And you belief is already in the minds of those who respect you when they suffer abuse or think about their past abuse.

You have already done what you say above one 'shall never do.'

And not only that, you can't admit it.

And worse, it seems you will not stop and reconsider.

And you never addressed the absurdities I pointed out here...

viewtopic.php?p=614472#p614472

[Walker]

OK in such case what is your answer for the suffering of people in this world? like just born baby suffering, people born with handicap etc? Can you give your explanation for these?

- Indeed he should give an answer, given his strident emotions that are ruling his thoughts, much like a King rules.

- Dattaswami, the logic of what you present has yet to be refuted here. Thus, your reasoning is irrefutable. Perhaps better minds can refute it elsewhere, at some other dance.

*

- Iwannaplayto’s presentation is a presentation of emotional feelings, rather than rationality. He imagines how people will feel based on what he feels, and bases everything on that.

- His sense of outrage does not allow for intellectual detachment. For instance, objectively speaking, abortion causes at least as much harm to the body as words, since abortion kills.

*

- Dattaswami, here is the gist of the opposing view to karma, Western style, and why. I would like to stress that these statements are objective assessments … not personal proclamations of belief. They are made in the spirit of explaining the gist of why karma causes upset in the West. For those who think everything someone writes is personal belief rather than an assessment, we make the font large, and by so doing illustrate the purpose of variation and caps in The Realm of Font ...

An Assessment of Modern Western Thought, as it pertains to this thread.

- People in the West like to think they are strong individualists, that they determine everything they are, with their choices. This is interesting because so many do the same thing without questioning what it is that they do, do … such as driving to the yoga class which for some reason must be group activity in the West, rather than just walking to the market and enjoying that healthy experience.

- Such Individualists who all drive to the yoga class are born pure, unaffected by the corrupt humans. When they get older and realize their individuality, realize how individuals are supposed to cope with the problem of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune … which is all the unfairness of the world … they realize that the mean old world, and the mean old God that created it, is why they suffer. Slings and arrows are seen as problems, rather than the experience of Life.

- Therefore, the thinking goes that individuals must return to, “The Garden.” The Garden refers to the pure state, before consciousness was corrupted by the imperfections of the world. In this line of thinking, if humans can make the world uncorrupted then humans themselves will be purified, not to mention all the innocent creatures that are eating each other raw and uncooked, just to survive.

- The return to The Garden will also benefit The Planet once humans get their act together and fix the Climate so that all the species can live, and not become extinct due to human existence.

- The thinking goes, Humans have corrupted the air, therefore humans must make the air like it was in The Garden. The world is pure. However, humans destroy the world in order to survive. Humans thus corrupt the world. Humans pave parking lots over paradise (which would otherwise eat you alive without bug spray.)

- Of course, since The Individual is born innocent, pure, and uninfluenced by anything in the world until born and the elements touch The Individual (because the individual is the body), and because The Individual is not an Individual until it leaves the birth canal of the mother, then any notions otherwise are not to be tolerated. No sir, not at all.

- Notions otherwise will cause the intellectual noggin to explode, and the Individual’s feelings will take over and run the thoughts, and run the world with emotion.

- This is why folks in the West have such difficulty with the Christian concept of Original Sin.

[Iwannaplato]

- Indeed he should give an answer, given his strident emotions that are ruling his thoughts, much like a King rules.

Actually the unfelt emotions in DS and probably you also are ruling your thoughts. It's the people who judge emotions the most who are driven by them, because they are not integrated.

And really, you can't come up with some other options than
God is a sadist
or
Everyone who is raped deserves it
?

- Dattaswami, the logic of what you present has yet to be refuted here. Thus, your reasoning is irrefutable. Perhaps better minds can refute it elsewhere, at some other dance.

I pointed out the implications of his 'logic' here.
viewtopic.php?p=614472#p614472
and elsewhere.
Instead of showing where this is wrong, suddenly he wants to know what MY position on the suffering of innocents is. A typical evasive maneuver. And it is a basic flaw in reasoning to think this would somehow let him off. That post was mostly mocking. There are other posts where I point out the obvious fact that he is telling victims this while also saying one should not.

*

- Iwannaplayto’s presentation is a presentation of emotional feelings, rather than rationality. He imagines how people will feel based on what he feels, and bases everything on that.

What did I imagine people would feel that you think is not the case?

- His sense of outrage does not allow for intellectual detachment. For instance, objectively speaking, abortion causes at least as much harm to the body as words, since abortion kills.

Right, but in DS's system any harm that happens is deserved harm. That would include any harm the mother does to herself by getting the abortion. Or the harm having the kid does to her body. That would also be deserved. All harm would be deserved. There would be no way for any harm to not be deserved. I won't even bring up the statistics around which causes more harm to the mother's body, cause then you'll go off on some tangent as if this was about abortion.

It's you who can't think logically. But futher, notice that you only dealt with the abortion issue. IOW you found what you think is a good objection to that one, but failed to respond when it had to do with murder or any other violence or harm.

Yes, emotions are present when I read about universal victim blaming. But the signs of your denied emotions and DS's are all over how evasive and distracting you both are. It's fine that you guys have emotions. You both likely think, and it may be true for you, that one has to choose between emotions and reason. And for this and other reasons you judge emotions and this makes it harder for you to integrate. Well, guess what's going on behind the scenes. I mean DS cannot address my posts at all in some of his responses. He'll bring up issues I never raised as if they are relevant.

And if you have some clever defense of the guru, this is so much less important that actually noticing what is happening. Clever denial is a big part of the problem. What's so scary about for you this guru having some serious flaws in both his conception of Karma and ability to notice his assumptions?

Why does that scare you so much, W?

- Dattaswami, here is the gist of the opposing view to karma, Western style, and why. I would like to stress that these statements are objective assessments … not personal proclamations of belief. They are made in the spirit of explaining the gist of why karma causes upset in the West. For those who think everything someone writes is personal belief rather than an assessment, we make the font large, and by so doing illustrate the purpose of variation and caps in The Realm of Font ...

This does not cover my objections.

An Assessment of Modern Western Thought, as it pertains to this thread.

- People in the West like to think they are strong individualists, that they determine everything they are, with their choices. This is interesting because so many do the same thing without questioning what it is that they do, do … such as driving to the yoga class which for some reason must be group activity in the West, rather than just walking to the market and enjoying that healthy experience.

LOL; you are saying this in defense of someone who is simply repeating the same tired cliches of HInduism that have been around for a long time. He cannot think for himself, or he might not think so binarily about the two options mentioned above. Neither of you has given a moment of thought to it.

- Such Individualists who all drive to the yoga class are born pure, unaffected by the corrupt humans. When they get older and realize their individuality, realize how individuals are supposed to cope with the problem of the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune … which is all the unfairness of the world … they realize that the mean old world, and the mean old God that created it, is why they suffer. Slings and arrows are seen as problems, rather than the experience of Life.

Strawman based on your binary thinking. I don't think God is mean, though I do think God is old.

- Therefore, the thinking goes that individuals must return to, “The Garden.” The Garden refers to the pure state, before consciousness was corrupted by the imperfections of the world. In this line of thinking, if humans can make the world uncorrupted then humans themselves will be purified, not to mention all the innocent creatures that are eating each other raw and uncooked, just to survive.

Nope, a false generalization. I am sure some people think this way, but neither of you is capable of not generalizing or noticing the contradictions in DS thought. I mean, the guy said you should never tell victims that their rape, say, is punishment sent for past sins. He can't even manage to admit that he is telling people here and elsewhere at his ashram and online the same old, cliche bs, who are victims or have been victims. He contradicts himself, but cannot admit it.

But you revere him as swimming in a river of knowledge. For you there must be no flaws in this man. I couldn't possibly have been pointing out something he is confused about.

- Of course, since The Individual is born innocent, pure, and uninfluenced by anything in the world until born and the elements touch The Individual (because the individual is the body), and because The Individual is not an Individual until it leaves the birth canal of the mother, then any notions otherwise are not to be tolerated. No sir, not at all.

I do not believe tabula rasa ideas about humans. I have argued against them. I think people can be born with all sorts of unpleasant traits. I believe that people can have done bad things in past lives. You are making false assumptions. However, I don't believe that all victims deserve their abuse. That it is necessarily aGod approved punishment for past sins. Neither of you can really look at individuals and discern. You have an idea in your heads and cannot distinguish between individuals. You see your ideas, like all fanatics. It must be fair and just...and you do not feel your fear about what it might mean if it was not always fair and just.

- Notions otherwise will cause the intellectual noggin to explode, and the Individual’s feelings will take over and run the thoughts, and run the world with emotion.

Kissing the gurus ass and defending what you think must be the truth is driven by emotion. If you really believed this guru was what he thinks he is, you wouldn't feel the need to come and post like this. And you think he hasn't dealt with Westerners? Come on. How did you get so uninformed and naive? Westerners have been heading towards him and his predessesor for decades. If you truly thought he was swimming in a river of knowledge you'd trust him to know about Westerners and be able to understand them. But you think he needs to hear your limited theories about Westerners. Or you just want to impress Daddy.

- This is why folks in the West have such difficulty with the Christian concept of Original Sin.

Now you really got it assbackwards. It's the East that doesn't have that concept - except where, say, Christianity made inroads. Yes, in the East you can have the idea that people have committed sins in previous incarnations and are born with that baggage, but that is NOT original sin. Google that and see if your hallucinations are anything but that. You know, see if your hallucinations fit either Hinduism or Buddhism or Taoism. And by the way, in the East you can also not have 'sin' with the heavy Western sense in it. I was actually a bit surprised how much DS focuses on Sin and Punishment. He might need to go to some of the other gurus who tend to see it more as patterns of confusion and habit that need to be dissolved by certain unpleasant experiences and not at all as punishment. It's an even more unpleasant version of Karma than many of his peers have, victim blamers all.

These facile judgments of me and others who are critical of DS and his beliefs might work on people who have little experience with these things, but from what you write and say, I would guess you have never been to the East and have mostly your own ad hoc notions of Hinduism and other systems Eastern. I doubt you have much direct experience of Eastern people, Eastern religions in practice in the East, gurus and their ilk. A typical bricolage-based Westerner, dabbling and picking and choosing, with a mish mash of pseudo-Eastern ideas, with little integration, not even noticing which Eastern religion the ideas come from and unable to separate them out from Western misunderstandings of Eastern ideas.

Also, I notice that you don't deal with any logical errors I have supposedly made in my emotionally driven posts, but just label my thinking emotional. IOW facile crap.

See if you have the courage to actually feel into why you felt the need to intercede. On face value, you're explaining, and poorly with the fallacy of generalization tossed, to DS about Westerners, lol. But what's really going on? Hm.

Go ahead, post some lazily thought out rebuttal, but on your own time, in private, for integrity's sake, see if you can what is really going on for you when you jump in here.