Do you experience time when there is no change?

[Flannel Jesus]

This is part of my problem with popeye's 'humans only react'. We not only have momentum/goals and came out of the womb running (man, we choose faces again and again to focus on), but we have multiple momentums. And when these get blocked, which is happening during waiting, this leads to effects that change over time.

I guess I interpret what Popeye says there charitably, as "every movement of every particle within a human is part of the casual chain of the universe". I wouldn't word it the way he words it, but I think he means something like that.

[Age]

Reminds me of a true story about a group of miners trapped by a cave-in. They were down there for a very long time before being rescued. During that time there was only one man with a watch, as the time dragged on, he was asked repeatedly how long had it been; and each time he lied to the rest of the men. Upon rescue, the only man that did not survive, was the man with the watch.

I suspect that something ironic is afoot here, but must confess that I am missing the point.

Could "popeye1945" just be claiming, saying, and/or suggesting that the ONLY reason WHY the one with the watch did not survive was solely because 'that one' was the ONLY one who knew the exact minutes or seconds that had 'past', or had 'ticked over', since all of 'them' had been trapped?

If this was 'the point' of telling us 'this', then I am NOT SURE WHY, ALSO.

'What' is the ACTUAL POINT of telling 'us' 'this story', "popeye1945"?

Was the reason the one who did NOT survive because of what I wrote above here? Or, did the "others" just KILL the one with the watch because that one kept LYING to 'them'?

Or, was there some other reason WHY that one, alone, did NOT survive?

[Age]

First of all, there is always change. Any human is filled with desire, for example. So, waiting is not no change, it is an accumulation of not getting where one wants to be.

Bingo, weird question from bahman. There is not "no change" while waiting. Every piece of your being is vibrating every moment of existence. If there was literally no change then you wouldn't be able to have a thought, since the process of thinking requires movement and change.

This is part of my problem with popeye's 'humans only react'.

'What', EXACTLY, is part of 'your' 'problem' with "popeyes1945's" 'humans only react' CLAIM?

IF, to "popeye1945" wants to CLAIM that 'humans only react', then "popeye1945" will ALSO have to CLAIM that ABSOLUTELY EVERY 'thing' "else" can ALSO 'only react'.

We not only have momentum/goals and came out of the womb running (man, we choose faces again and again to focus on), but we have multiple momentums.

ALL OF are but just of 'reactions'.

Can 'you' name ONE 'thing', which 'you', or 'that body', HAS DONE which was NOT just 'a reaction' of some sort?

If yes, then will 'you' INFORM of 'that thing'?

If no, then WHY NOT?

And when these get blocked, which is happening during waiting, this leads to effects that change over time.

'What', EXACTLY, CAUSED 'the waiting', which is but just ANOTHER 'reaction'?

[Age]

This is part of my problem with popeye's 'humans only react'. We not only have momentum/goals and came out of the womb running (man, we choose faces again and again to focus on), but we have multiple momentums. And when these get blocked, which is happening during waiting, this leads to effects that change over time.

I guess I interpret what Popeye says there charitably, as "every movement of every particle within a human is part of the casual chain of the universe". I wouldn't word it the way he words it, but I think he means something like that.

'This' is how I see what "popeye1945" in SAYING, in relation to the 'humans only react' CLAIM.

[bahman]

Sculptor believes that there is no experience of time when there is no change. If it is so then why waiting is so bothersome? Obviously, there should be no waiting if there is no passage of psychological time.

First of all, there is always change. Any human is filled with desire, for example. So, waiting is not no change, it is an accumulation of not getting where one wants to be. And often where we wait, it's not pleasant to be there. That's why they put TV in checkout lines to fool the organism that soemthing is happening.

Some deep meditators who have cut their own limbic systems out of themselves and are so deep in meditation and could care less about themselves may not experience time. And you don't experience time after you shoot yourself in the head. I mean, at least not before coursing through the bardos.

We aren't objects. We're always doing things and always wanting and reacting to things. So, there is always change.

I mean when there is no psychological change.

[Flannel Jesus]

I mean when there is no psychological change.

Going from not-bored to bored is a psychological change

[bahman]

I mean when there is no psychological change.

Going from not-bored to bored is a psychological change

How that could be related to our discussion? I meant when is there a passage of time when there is no psychological change?

[Iwannaplato]

I mean when there is no psychological change.

There's always psychological change. Our hearts are beating (where there is a large neuronal nexis), our hormone levels are changing, our thoughts are changing, our desires shift in strength and focus, food is shifting through the digestive system (where there is another large neuronal nexis), we are generally aware of time to different degrees of accuracy, we generally have preferences about where we'd rather be, we are sweating lesser and greater amounts, our brain is abuzz with cycles and patterns affecting and affected by the rest. And all of that affects in complex and continuous processes our psychology OR is another way of looking at our psychology.

There's no human stasis.

[Iwannaplato]

This is part of my problem with popeye's 'humans only react'. We not only have momentum/goals and came out of the womb running (man, we choose faces again and again to focus on), but we have multiple momentums. And when these get blocked, which is happening during waiting, this leads to effects that change over time.

I guess I interpret what Popeye says there charitably, as "every movement of every particle within a human is part of the casual chain of the universe". I wouldn't word it the way he words it, but I think he means something like that.

You may be right, but he's very specific about reactive and not directly active. I'm sure he doesn't see us as not being active, but he keeps describing it as if any action we take is a (mere) reaction to external triggers.

[bahman]

I mean when there is no psychological change.

There's always psychological change. Our hearts are beating (where there is a large neuronal nexis), our hormone levels are changing, our thoughts are changing, our desires shift in strength and focus, food is shifting through the digestive system (where there is another large neuronal nexis), we are generally aware of time to different degrees of accuracy, we generally have preferences about where we'd rather be, we are sweating lesser and greater amounts, our brain is abuzz with cycles and patterns affecting and affected by the rest. And all of that affects in complex and continuous processes our psychology OR is another way of looking at our psychology.

There's no human stasis.

Couldn't you go to the state of rest of mind when you think of nothing?

[Iwannaplato]

double

[Iwannaplato]

Couldn't you go to the state of rest of mind when you think of nothing?

Thinking of nothing is not enough, all thoee processes are still flowing and shifting things. I did note orginally that if you cut yourself off, over a long period of time from your limbic system (emotions) nad probably also the brain stem (desires, needs) through strict overwhelming meditation practice you may very well experience what feels like no time passing. And some claim this about those states. But then you've pretty much stopped being human.

[Skepdick]

Thinking of nothing is not enough, all thoee processes are still flowing and shifting things.

In general - true. Not in particular.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect

One can "freeze" the evolution of the system by measuring it frequently enough in its known initial state.

[bahman]

Couldn't you go to the state of rest of mind when you think of nothing?

Thinking of nothing is not enough, all thoee processes are still flowing and shifting things. I did note orginally that if you cut yourself off, over a long period of time from your limbic system (emotions) nad probably also the brain stem (desires, needs) through strict overwhelming meditation practice you may very well experience what feels like no time passing. And some claim this about those states. But then you've pretty much stopped being human.

Ahan, you think that consciousness is the result of matter process. I don't think so.

[Iwannaplato]

Ahan, you think that consciousness is the result of matter process. I don't think so.

It doesn't matter. If we look at consciousness or mind, we see cycles or activity, desires arising, gaining strength, ebbing, getting replaced, thoughts coming in and out, urges, memories, fantasies. Constant flux and activity.

When we wait, this leads to things happening that are different from when we are engaged in a creative process or speaking with someone or swimming. And the longer we wait, the more different 'pressures' affect mind.

I don't remember the paradigms of everyone here so I started with a physicalist description. But an idealist descriptions ends up being much the same in terms of cycles, lack of stability and being affected even by nothing external. In fact being deprived of stimuli is a stimulus. Though we are never without stimuli.

Even a solipsist with everying being considered just that person's mind is going through changes all the time.

And even if one is not a physicalist, what physicalists call the body is a bunch of processes that we experience in our minds. Our minds are affected by whatever these in fact mental processes and cycles are. Perhaps there is only a spiritual heart or mental heart, but it's got a heartbeat anyway and rhythems in time, just as our breathing does and hunger and so on. No stasis.

Whatever metaphysical substance(s) you believe in and no matter how many or few.