Re: Secularism versus the Demonization of Atheists
Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:22 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
(Belinda)This illustrates that God does not calculate but that His generosity is boundless.
(Immanuel Can)This is not so. For you have forgotten that all were workmen hired by the "master" in the story. There is no part of this story in which the master distributes money to people who were not his, far less to people who hated him. If you see that there, you're making it up...it's not in the text.
(Belinda)We are all his. You too. You seem not to see that everyone has a measure of goodwill however they call themselves, Jew, atheist, Muslim Christian. Pagan etc.
(Belinda)So , Immanuel, your vengeful God is not the Christian God.
(Immanuel)No, He's the God of justice, who will eventually settle all questions of injustice. He's also the God of free will, who will not force anybody to come to Him. Most of all, He's the God of relationship, who calls us all to choose to be his friends and servants now.
But clearly, it's not an offer everyone takes. It's certainly not an offer He forces on the unwilling. And certainly, if you read the passages I listed, you know that's also what both Christ and the apostles said. So whoever said the contrary to you, he didn't know what he was saying.
(Belinda) True, the God of justice was better than the old pagan tribal god who was jealous of his property and in active combat with other tribal gods in the region.Have you not looked at how The Bible can be read chronologically so that you can see the development of the monogod from small beginnnings to a more universal idea?
(Belinda)You don't even credit Islam where credit is due, so you are also narrow minded.
(Immanuel)Please enlighten me: where do you think "credit" is due to Islam? I have at least taken them seriously enough to actually read the whole Koran and some of the Haddiths, to learn what they actually believe. I've also talked with Islamic persons about how they understand their beliefs.
Have you?
(Belinda) You had suggested that we discuss all the parables of Jesus and I pointed out this is too large an undertaking for these pages. Now you suggest that the entire Koran and Hadith must be read before one Hadith is understood. These pages are not made for long dissertations.The hadith I mentioned does indeed tell the story of the labourers in the vineyard much as Jesus told it. You seem to be avoiding the issue that Islam's god is a god of generosity and mercy same as the Christian version.You mention God's justice; but you confuse God's absolute justice which is tempered with mercy and generosity with human justice and human notions of fairness.
True, we do have to deal with fairness and justice on the human scale, but do you not see that God's justice is larger and always tempered and purified with kindness and mercy?
We are accustomed to occasional Islamic narrowness of vision when Allah's command is taken to be the delivery of human justice, revenge, and so on. Do try to see that your imputing stern human justice to God is the same as that occasional Islamic narrowness.
To appreciate the ethics that Jesus proclaimed and illustrated with parables there is no need first to believe in any supernatural theory of existence. To put into practice the humanitarian ethics there is no need first to believe in any supernatural existence. By affirming a supernatural existence you are reifying the object of men's aspirations and ideals.
Finally, if you want to discuss how Jesus used scenarios from the common farming, herding , fishing,housekeeping etc. experiences of his listeners, do so by all means as this would be interesting and illuminating. But don't confuse the scenarios of the parables with their ethical themes. See the uses of hermeneutics.
(Belinda)This illustrates that God does not calculate but that His generosity is boundless.
(Immanuel Can)This is not so. For you have forgotten that all were workmen hired by the "master" in the story. There is no part of this story in which the master distributes money to people who were not his, far less to people who hated him. If you see that there, you're making it up...it's not in the text.
(Belinda)We are all his. You too. You seem not to see that everyone has a measure of goodwill however they call themselves, Jew, atheist, Muslim Christian. Pagan etc.
(Belinda)So , Immanuel, your vengeful God is not the Christian God.
(Immanuel)No, He's the God of justice, who will eventually settle all questions of injustice. He's also the God of free will, who will not force anybody to come to Him. Most of all, He's the God of relationship, who calls us all to choose to be his friends and servants now.
But clearly, it's not an offer everyone takes. It's certainly not an offer He forces on the unwilling. And certainly, if you read the passages I listed, you know that's also what both Christ and the apostles said. So whoever said the contrary to you, he didn't know what he was saying.
(Belinda) True, the God of justice was better than the old pagan tribal god who was jealous of his property and in active combat with other tribal gods in the region.Have you not looked at how The Bible can be read chronologically so that you can see the development of the monogod from small beginnnings to a more universal idea?
(Belinda)You don't even credit Islam where credit is due, so you are also narrow minded.
(Immanuel)Please enlighten me: where do you think "credit" is due to Islam? I have at least taken them seriously enough to actually read the whole Koran and some of the Haddiths, to learn what they actually believe. I've also talked with Islamic persons about how they understand their beliefs.
Have you?
(Belinda) You had suggested that we discuss all the parables of Jesus and I pointed out this is too large an undertaking for these pages. Now you suggest that the entire Koran and Hadith must be read before one Hadith is understood. These pages are not made for long dissertations.The hadith I mentioned does indeed tell the story of the labourers in the vineyard much as Jesus told it. You seem to be avoiding the issue that Islam's god is a god of generosity and mercy same as the Christian version.You mention God's justice; but you confuse God's absolute justice which is tempered with mercy and generosity with human justice and human notions of fairness.
True, we do have to deal with fairness and justice on the human scale, but do you not see that God's justice is larger and always tempered and purified with kindness and mercy?
We are accustomed to occasional Islamic narrowness of vision when Allah's command is taken to be the delivery of human justice, revenge, and so on. Do try to see that your imputing stern human justice to God is the same as that occasional Islamic narrowness.
To appreciate the ethics that Jesus proclaimed and illustrated with parables there is no need first to believe in any supernatural theory of existence. To put into practice the humanitarian ethics there is no need first to believe in any supernatural existence. By affirming a supernatural existence you are reifying the object of men's aspirations and ideals.
Finally, if you want to discuss how Jesus used scenarios from the common farming, herding , fishing,housekeeping etc. experiences of his listeners, do so by all means as this would be interesting and illuminating. But don't confuse the scenarios of the parables with their ethical themes. See the uses of hermeneutics.