Why Lincoln? I don't get it!

[Gary Childress]

Isn't that pretty much the only similarity between Lincoln and Trump? Lincoln ended a moral travesty our nation was engaging in. What does Trump stand for that is morally laudable?

What makes you think that Lincoln was some saint, and Trump is bad? The truth may be quite the other way around!

I don't think Lincoln was a "saint" (I would have thought my first post in this thread would have indicated such). But he did end slavery in the US. That was a remarkable achievement considering how volatile the situation obviously turned out to be between the conflicting parties.

I'm sure Trump is not quite the ogre some make him out to be. But I do fear some of the friction he may cause between the US and China, Mexico and Islam. I think we live in a world that is ever shrinking in size in terms of its ability to sustain us all and in terms of how much we now tend to interact on average with people of other nations. I suppose in some ways I've bought into the notion that nations should be more cooperative toward each other and not build metaphorical (or actual) walls between each other. The world seems like a rather fragile place in many ways. Trump seems impulsive and reckless to me. Those who live in glass houses...

Anyway that is my perspective. I could of course be wrong. If I am, perhaps you can explain.

[henry quirk]

"I do fear some of the friction he may cause between the US and China, Mexico and Islam."

Best I can tell: Trump just wants folks to immigrate to the U.S. legally, wants trade parity, and wants bomb-throwing Wahhabists to stay out of the U.S.

None of these positions are remarkable. What 'is' remarkable are the folks who find non-porous borders and fair trade 'racist' and 'bigoted'.

#

"Trump seems impulsive and reckless to me."

He's a showman, pure and simple.

[Melchior]

"I do fear some of the friction he may cause between the US and China, Mexico and Islam."

Best I can tell: Trump just wants folks to immigrate to the U.S. legally, wants trade parity, and wants bomb-throwing Wahhabists to stay out of the U.S.

None of these positions are remarkable. What 'is' remarkable are the folks who find non-porous borders and fair trade 'racist' and 'bigoted'.

#

"Trump seems impulsive and reckless to me."

He's a showman, pure and simple.

Good post!

[Gary Childress]

"I do fear some of the friction he may cause between the US and China, Mexico and Islam."

Best I can tell: Trump just wants folks to immigrate to the U.S. legally, wants trade parity, and wants bomb-throwing Wahhabists to stay out of the U.S.

None of these positions are remarkable. What 'is' remarkable are the folks who find non-porous borders and fair trade 'racist' and 'bigoted'.

#

"Trump seems impulsive and reckless to me."

He's a showman, pure and simple.

1. It seems to me that illegal immigration from Mexico is not a major problem that we need to devote a lot of energy toward. In fact I believe studies have indicated that illegal immigration has been declining in recent years.

2. Not all Muslims are "bomb-throwing Wahhabists."

3. There are other candidates who are for more trade parity with China, including Bernie Sanders.

Trump doesn't have any experience in politics. I'd be more confident going with someone like Sanders than Trump. You can't even make manager at a fast food restaurant with no experience. I would think POTUS ought to be at least a little more demanding.

[Dubious]

Trump doesn't have any experience in politics.

This may actually be an advantage considering the merits of those who do. Consider Hillary Clinton's vast experience! She's turning out to be a real bombshell but not because of her looks.

[Gary Childress]

Trump doesn't have any experience in politics.

This may actually be an advantage...

Perhaps...

At least we can look at Hillary's political record and deduce from it what her future behavior may be. Because of her past record I won't vote for her. Trump, who knows? He may turn out OK or he may wreck the entire country. However, looking at Sanders we have a record of someone who has pretty consistently been an advocate for the welfare of the majority of ordinary voters. Given this record I trust him to make prudent decisions in the future that will serve to ease tensions and appease the most volatile elements of society. My biggest concern, however, is with his age and health. I do wonder how long he would be able to weather the stress and demands of POTUS. I just wish he were a bit younger.

[Dubious]

Given this record I trust him to make prudent decisions in the future that will serve to ease tensions and appease the most volatile elements of society. My biggest concern, however, is with his age and health. I do wonder how long he would be able to weather the stress and demands of POTUS. I just wish he were a bit younger.

It's unusual that the oldest candidate is the most popular with the younger voters. Unfortunately there isn't must left for Sanders to hope for regarding his candidacy. It seems that Hillary Borgia Clinton has most of the big league on her side. Of course it remains to be seen how it turns out in November, events are never so clear, but I think the democrats didn't do themselves a favor by pitting her against Trump who has at least as much experience in playing dirty as she does. Had Sanders been favored, I believe he would have had a better chance against Trump.

[Melchior]

"I do fear some of the friction he may cause between the US and China, Mexico and Islam."

Best I can tell: Trump just wants folks to immigrate to the U.S. legally, wants trade parity, and wants bomb-throwing Wahhabists to stay out of the U.S.

None of these positions are remarkable. What 'is' remarkable are the folks who find non-porous borders and fair trade 'racist' and 'bigoted'.

#

"Trump seems impulsive and reckless to me."

He's a showman, pure and simple.

1. It seems to me that illegal immigration from Mexico is not a major problem that we need to devote a lot of energy toward. In fact I believe studies have indicated that illegal immigration has been declining in recent years.

2. Not all Muslims are "bomb-throwing Wahhabists."

3. There are other candidates who are for more trade parity with China, including Bernie Sanders.

Trump doesn't have any experience in politics. I'd be more confident going with someone like Sanders than Trump. You can't even make manager at a fast food restaurant with no experience. I would think POTUS ought to be at least a little more demanding.

Go to any major city in the US. they all are falling apart due to drugs, poor education, welfare, crime, etc. They are all inter-related.

[Gary Childress]

"I do fear some of the friction he may cause between the US and China, Mexico and Islam."

Best I can tell: Trump just wants folks to immigrate to the U.S. legally, wants trade parity, and wants bomb-throwing Wahhabists to stay out of the U.S.

None of these positions are remarkable. What 'is' remarkable are the folks who find non-porous borders and fair trade 'racist' and 'bigoted'.

#

"Trump seems impulsive and reckless to me."

He's a showman, pure and simple.

1. It seems to me that illegal immigration from Mexico is not a major problem that we need to devote a lot of energy toward. In fact I believe studies have indicated that illegal immigration has been declining in recent years.

2. Not all Muslims are "bomb-throwing Wahhabists."

3. There are other candidates who are for more trade parity with China, including Bernie Sanders.

Trump doesn't have any experience in politics. I'd be more confident going with someone like Sanders than Trump. You can't even make manager at a fast food restaurant with no experience. I would think POTUS ought to be at least a little more demanding.

Go to any major city in the US. they all are falling apart due to drugs, poor education, welfare, crime, etc. They are all inter-related.

I suppose there are at least a couple choices, we can pray to the happy voodoo gods of capitalism to make it rain money. OR we could turn to a more socialist economy and take active control of our destiny instead of relying on "invisible hands" to do it for us. That'll probably never happen though because too many Americans have bought into the "free market" BS that's been peddled for decades now.

[henry quirk]

"It seems to me that illegal immigration from Mexico is not a major problem that we need to devote a lot of energy toward. In fact I believe studies have indicated that illegal immigration has been declining in recent years."

Seems to me porous borders are a significant problem.

#

"Not all Muslims are "bomb-throwing Wahhabists." "

Of course not...I didn't say they were (and neither did Trump). Here's the thing: a whole whack of 'refugees' are funneling into the U.S....there's currently no way to distinguish between the 'moderate' and the 'fanatic'...sensible then, to close the funnel, stop the in-flow, till a reliable method is found to separate wheat from chaff.

I mean, who in their right mind has an open house, invites the neighborhood in, knowing that among the guests will be at least one pyromaniac?

#

"There are other candidates who are for more trade parity with China, including Bernie Sanders."

Sanders is a friggin' communitarian, which -- to my mind -- is just about the worst thing a human being can be (only pedos and rapists are a lower grade of scum).

#

"Trump doesn't have any experience in politics."

Indeed...this is a plus.

[henry quirk]

The free or unrestrained or unrestricted or open market is not capitalism.

Capitalism is, at best, the drooling, idiot brother of the free market.

Capitalism is, by definition, all about the capital while the market is all about the transactors, the individuals who buy and sell.

Capitalism lends itself to aggregation and protectionisn; the market is open to all, protects no one.

[Gary Childress]

"It seems to me that illegal immigration from Mexico is not a major problem that we need to devote a lot of energy toward. In fact I believe studies have indicated that illegal immigration has been declining in recent years."

Seems to me porous borders are a significant problem.

In what way are illegal Mexicans creating a significant problem?

"Not all Muslims are "bomb-throwing Wahhabists." "

Of course not...I didn't say they were (and neither did Trump). Here's the thing: a whole whack of 'refugees' are funneling into the U.S....there's currently no way to distinguish between the 'moderate' and the 'fanatic'...sensible then, to close the funnel, stop the in-flow, till a reliable method is found to separate wheat from chaff.

I mean, who in their right mind has an open house, invites the neighborhood in, knowing that among the guests will be at least one pyromaniac?

So what are all the legitimate refugees supposed to do in the mean time. Drown in the Mediterranean? Let Europeans deal with it? How very noble of us to help instigate the debacle in the Middle East and then try to wash our hands of it. "Oops, sorry. Can't help. We're isolationists now."

"There are other candidates who are for more trade parity with China, including Bernie Sanders."

Sanders is a friggin' communitarian, which -- to my mind -- is just about the worst thing a human being can be (only pedos and rapists are a lower grade of scum).

Sanders is a moderate, a social democrat. Have you even seen his platform yet? Many of his ideas are really not that controversial.

"Trump doesn't have any experience in politics."

Indeed...this is a plus.

It is if you want someone who doesn't know what they're doing in charge.

[henry quirk]

"In what way are illegal Mexicans creating a significant problem?"

Eight to twelve million human beings who want to be here but who can't be bothered to enter legally is a large problem.

#

"So what are all the legitimate refugees supposed to do in the mean time. Drown in the Mediterranean? Let Europeans deal with it? How very noble of us to help instigate the debacle in the Middle East and then try to wash our hands of it. "Oops, sorry. Can't help. We're isolationists now." "

As I told Leo a while back: I live in America...my fortunes are tied to America's...it's in my best interest that America do well even if not always doing good...yeah, America made some big mistakes, made poor choices...not seein' how layin down and exposing our belly makes things right or compensates any one for any thing.

And: no, we didn't instigate jack...we made a crappy situation worse certainly, but the ME has always been a shithole...we didn't make it that way.

And: when we intervene (right or wrong, good or bad) we're imperalists, and, when we try for more prudent approaches (letting others self-determine or picking our allies more wisely) we're isolationists.

If America was really an isolationist, we'd sever all ties except those that tangibly profit everyone involved, we'd tap into our own substantial resources and let the ME oil barons sink, we'd refrain from any assistance to any one except where, again, there was a profit to be had, we'd openly brandish the big stick.

We're not doin' any of that, and we won't be doin' any of that even if Trump gets the big chair.

Personally, I think the U.S. ought to go isolationist...mind our own business, keep our hands to ourselves, rain down hell on any one who screws with us...no nation building...lend an assist to others on a case by case basis and always with great caution...no fiddle-farting...get in, do it, get out...and, not 'America First' but 'The American First'.

#

Sanders is a communitarian, which -- again -- is an awful thing to be. He's in good company as most of the repubs, the dems, the conservs, the progressives, the libertarians, the anarchists, and on and on are equally communitarian.

#

You judge Trump as incapable cuz he's not a politician. I judge him as capable cuz he's a businessman (not a repub or conserv or dem or progressive or even a capitalist)...he's a transactor and a good one...sure, he's loud and vulgar and thinks highly of himself but I find 'that' preferable to safe-space craving, sensitive, apologetic, diplomatic, 'statesmen'.

And, for the record, I'm no Trump supporter, no matter how it may seem.

[henry quirk]

Their options...

Get down to the business of weeding their own garden...

or

...die.


It's not fair, not right, but it is what it is...crying about the milk on the floor (and punishing Uncle Sam for making a mess) doesn't make the milk magically leap back into the pitcher, doesn't make the shattered pitcher magically reassemble itself. No, you gotta get down on the floor and collect each shard and splinter, you gotta get the mop and get up all that wasted milk.

Running away to another room just leaves the mess intact...expecting some one else to clean up the mess is a sure path to disappointment...change your own oil, replace your sparkplugs, weed your own garden.

[Gary Childress]

Eight to twelve million human beings who want to be here but who can't be bothered to enter legally is a large problem.

Fair enough. If Mexico is going to graciously pay for the wall, then I'm for it. However, people have been immigrating to the US for a couple centuries now. People came by boatloads during the Irish Potato famine, for example. There were a lot of people who resented them but it doesn't appear to have destroyed our nation. We're still here, except with some more people whose ancestors were formerly from Ireland.

As I told Leo a while back: I live in America...my fortunes are tied to America's...it's in my best interest that America do well even if not always doing good...yeah, America made some big mistakes, made poor choices...not seein' how layin down and exposing our belly makes things right or compensates any one for any thing.

And: no, we didn't instigate jack...we made a crappy situation worse certainly, but the ME has always been a shithole...we didn't make it that way.

And: when we intervene (right or wrong, good or bad) we're imperalists, and, when we try for more prudent approaches (letting others self-determine or picking our allies more wisely) we're isolationists.

If America was really an isolationist, we'd sever all ties except those that tangibly profit everyone involved, we'd tap into our own substantial resources and let the ME oil barons sink, we'd refrain from any assistance to any one except where, again, there was a profit to be had, we'd openly brandish the big stick.

We're not doin' any of that, and we won't be doin' any of that even if Trump gets the big chair.

Personally, I think the U.S. ought to go isolationist...mind our own business, keep our hands to ourselves, rain down hell on any one who screws with us...no nation building...lend an assist to others on a case by case basis and always with great caution...no fiddle-farting...get in, do it, get out...and, not 'America First' but 'The American First'.

As you say we made a crappy situation worse. Again, fair enough. It must suck to be a Muslim from Iraq and Syria right now but not much we care to do about it I guess.

Sanders is a communitarian, which -- again -- is an awful thing to be. He's in good company as most of the repubs, the dems, the conservs, the progressives, the libertarians, the anarchists, and on and on are equally communitarian.

I'm not sure how you are defining "communitarian" and what is the opposite of a "communitarian" in this private language world of yours but if Sanders is one I must be for "communitarianism" and I'll say it with pride.

You judge Trump as incapable cuz he's not a politician. I judge him as capable cuz he's a businessman (not a repub or conserv or dem or progressive or even a capitalist)...he's a transactor and a good one...sure, he's loud and vulgar and thinks highly of himself but I find 'that' preferable to safe-space craving, sensitive, apologetic, diplomatic, 'statesmen'.

Not sure how good a "transactor" he is. He's been bankrupt a couple times. I think there's a lot to be said for being diplomatic and sensitive to everyone's needs.

And, for the record, I'm no Trump supporter, no matter how it may seem.

Sounds like you are "supporting" him now.