Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Maia
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Maia »

Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:40 am Europe certainly was behind on the construction of stone fortified settlements, but certainly had forts. I've been going over forts in Wales and Southern England for a while, while systemmatic warfare fortifications designed to repulse a siege appears quite late in the bronze age, the settlements with enclosures do not. Often back to 4000 BC, when they were still exhaustic the soil through poor agricultural practices. Basically they had to stay low population and migrate from site to site often, so the settled societies will outnumber the actual sedentary societies at any given time. This likewise is going to hamper monolithic building programs. What it won't hamper is wooden fort buildings like we see occasionally pop up in a bog in Europe, but you have to be extremely lucky to find those. England is overrepresented in late bronze age hill forts due to the ease of finding them but under in everything else likely due to rich agricultural swampsor other areas with lots of food and productivity in the era having been continuously exploited to this day, and now have something called council houses built over them.

The reflective acoustics is a known phenomena two continents wide. Best site is in Malta, the best acoustics in the ancient world, and they have monolithic building going back to 10,000 BC. Nothing in particular stands out as a matriarchy at any of these sites until the time of written records, when we get a glimpse of what current practices were, and only some were focused in female gods or priesthoods. It's like trying to ascribe a roof to a matriarchy.... too common of a attribute, and coincidental if they have it.

Under the ground primate theory I noted agriculture sped up human aggression as men turned sedentary and stayed in one place, having to guard their lands. It wasn't till Mesopotamia you saw armies of over 1,000. Prior it was just clan battles, a few dozen to a few hundred on either side. Primary concerns is survival of families, followed by food, followed by settlements. It would of been easy to rebuild something thatched (and equally hard to see it on the archeological record). It took a long time to solve simple stuff such as how to preserve grain from humidity and rats.... I recently solved a Aegean bronze age mystery of a mysterious ceramic pan with intricate designs that was made for cooking but never used as lack of evidence of burning flame. I had to explain they were viewing it upside down.... was a lid for a grain pot. I know because greek and turkish women to this day are obsessed on social media with showing off their multi grain inventories in glass and plastic bottles in their kitchen, and I followed a few because they were archeologists and should of known their ancestors would of been equally impressed with their kitchen grain, but rats were a bigger issue then. Plus the fancy designs were on the underside of the pan.... which made no sense. Clearly a lid. Often described as a big archeological mystery.... dumbasses.

It took time to turn assets like buildings into useful fortifications. 10,000 bc (call that the start of agriculture, precise dates can be debated) to around 5000 BC, when fortified long term settlements turn up, where we realize walls do more than support roofs, and you can actually use them to fend off costly raids and have more babies. Using bows and arrows with walls.... oh fuck. Myceneans were stumped on how to fight Troy in the Illiad for 10 years.

The wooden bog forts do provide this function for a small population. Just hell to find. But they existed in some places. England always was a backwater.
Archaeologists can indeed be a bit blind to the obvious, sometimes. I remember in A-level at school pointing out that a particular pile of Bronze Age burnt rubble was most likely the remains of a sweat lodge. On another occasion we were discussing some passage grave somewhere that carbon dating reckoned had been in use for about a thousand years, and it had the remains of about 40 bodies inside. I made what I thought was a completely obvious point that 1000 divided by 40 is 25, the average length of a generation, and that therefore this burial site probably represented a dynasty, and polity, of some sort, and a pretty long-lived one at that. There was no mention of any DNA tests having been carried out, though.

I agree that warfare certainly occurred during the Bronze Age. It would be astonishing if it had not, given human nature. But the scale of it, as you say, was small and local, and I don't think this argues against the existence of priestesses with spiritual authority. Even the bronze weapons that we find, it's thought, wouldn't have been much use in battle, and were most likely used for ceremonial purposes, or even as a form of currency. This all changed with the Iron Age, when warfare comes of age, in earnest, and society becomes more stratified, with the formation of warrior elites, who were always male, of course. The late Bronze Age, therefore, is probably best regarded as a time of transition, and it's around this time that the last vestiges of the European megalithic culture die out, though it was already long past its heyday.
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

There wasn't much difference of size of settlements in England before and after the bronze age. They just got poorer as nobody needed their tin.

And it doesn't rule our a matriarchy. A few existed in the historical record. Spain is a far better location for it though. But it doesn't really suggest they were either, and having echoes in caves, natural or man made, doesn't suggest one way or another.

It's incredibly hard to find artifacts that suggest a matriarchy because women, even when severely segregated and clearly second class, have a role in the family and society that's 50% women, they leave behind artifacts and have roles in society. Religion tends to favor women over time. You gotta find cults women have no business being around like soldier cults, and even then I'm betting women were involved in food preparation or making clothes for the deity statue, or their husband's or sons get up.
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Sculptor
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Sculptor »

Constantine wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:52 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4jOKPpWDr0

TikHistory is a British historian best known for his WW2 coverage of the Stalingrad, but recently has been branching out into the origins in Neo Pagan and Gnostic circles in Europe in the early 20th century that the various parts of the Nazis movement grew out of.

He has several episodes out. He is just now reading into Nietzsche.

His own personal philosophy in Anarcho-Capitalism, and I suspect he is a atheist.
So is he a NEO Nazi, or just a Nazi?
Maia
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Maia »

Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:58 pm There wasn't much difference of size of settlements in England before and after the bronze age. They just got poorer as nobody needed their tin.

And it doesn't rule our a matriarchy. A few existed in the historical record. Spain is a far better location for it though. But it doesn't really suggest they were either, and having echoes in caves, natural or man made, doesn't suggest one way or another.

It's incredibly hard to find artifacts that suggest a matriarchy because women, even when severely segregated and clearly second class, have a role in the family and society that's 50% women, they leave behind artifacts and have roles in society. Religion tends to favor women over time. You gotta find cults women have no business being around like soldier cults, and even then I'm betting women were involved in food preparation or making clothes for the deity statue, or their husband's or sons get up.
Perhaps. I still can't help feeling that there's more to discover, though.
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

Maia wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:25 pm
Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:58 pm There wasn't much difference of size of settlements in England before and after the bronze age. They just got poorer as nobody needed their tin.

And it doesn't rule our a matriarchy. A few existed in the historical record. Spain is a far better location for it though. But it doesn't really suggest they were either, and having echoes in caves, natural or man made, doesn't suggest one way or another.

It's incredibly hard to find artifacts that suggest a matriarchy because women, even when severely segregated and clearly second class, have a role in the family and society that's 50% women, they leave behind artifacts and have roles in society. Religion tends to favor women over time. You gotta find cults women have no business being around like soldier cults, and even then I'm betting women were involved in food preparation or making clothes for the deity statue, or their husband's or sons get up.
Perhaps. I still can't help feeling that there's more to discover, though.
Oh, definitely.

You won't see many matriarchies reach the city state level, more the tribal.

Reasons are, even if you have a female leader, the army and generals won't be women. Most of the government leadership won't be. And that woman landed that position due to a quirk of male inheritance drying out (usually).

They can do a call to war over injustice or have a vision or religious call to duty. Men often respond to these claims positively. British had Joan of Arc problems for a while, but that wasn't a matriarchy. She had to fit into a patriarchal role.

A matriarchy would be, say I fell in love with a French Woman, not knowing anything about France. We decided to move in together, she lived in France, I lived here in America. She insists I move to France, as she has the better job and can get me a shit whatever job easily. So I agree. In France.... all her female friends has foreign husbands. We all do whatever jobs we are put into, get home and wash the clothes as she refuses and bake the baguette and stuff like that. She sets the dinner locations we go to, take the lead in where we walk on the nightly stroll. When we greet other couples, it's the women acknowledged first. When male kids of French families reach sexual maturity, they are sent off to Germany or Saudi Arabia to marry, and the daughter stays and inherits.

That's your basic matriarchy.

Now add the celtic warfare component of chariot warfare. How likely is a settlement going to be to marry off their young sons who have loyalty and strength to a potential enemy, or neutral power, if war is perpetually a possibility?

Males aren't easily surrendered in societies geared to war. Women don't face the wrath of war as much even when married into the enemy camp. The men outside would have to face total defeat before they let the enemy indoors.

That's the rule for fortified settlements. Now for little hamlets with no defenses- battling on a scale of small rape raids and cattle thieving, men are worth even more. But could swing either way, but these communities are a opportunistic outgrowth of a larger settlement most likely male dominant. But if you go over homosexuality sapiens and back to homo erectus.... I'm bettering while usually male dominant it wouldn't be too much so. Lots more matriarchies earlier in Europe than today.

Today you'll get hermes and chanel wearing female prime ministers in Denmark, Finland. Moldova is odd case given the Russian occupation there. England was always isolated so could risk female queens and prime ministers. It takes a very safe and settled society to risk women running things. Now men are throw away entities. They don't get married off to a neighboring tribe, just fucked over.
Maia
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Maia »

Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:28 pm
Maia wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:25 pm
Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:58 pm There wasn't much difference of size of settlements in England before and after the bronze age. They just got poorer as nobody needed their tin.

And it doesn't rule our a matriarchy. A few existed in the historical record. Spain is a far better location for it though. But it doesn't really suggest they were either, and having echoes in caves, natural or man made, doesn't suggest one way or another.

It's incredibly hard to find artifacts that suggest a matriarchy because women, even when severely segregated and clearly second class, have a role in the family and society that's 50% women, they leave behind artifacts and have roles in society. Religion tends to favor women over time. You gotta find cults women have no business being around like soldier cults, and even then I'm betting women were involved in food preparation or making clothes for the deity statue, or their husband's or sons get up.
Perhaps. I still can't help feeling that there's more to discover, though.
Oh, definitely.

You won't see many matriarchies reach the city state level, more the tribal.

Reasons are, even if you have a female leader, the army and generals won't be women. Most of the government leadership won't be. And that woman landed that position due to a quirk of male inheritance drying out (usually).

They can do a call to war over injustice or have a vision or religious call to duty. Men often respond to these claims positively. British had Joan of Arc problems for a while, but that wasn't a matriarchy. She had to fit into a patriarchal role.

A matriarchy would be, say I fell in love with a French Woman, not knowing anything about France. We decided to move in together, she lived in France, I lived here in America. She insists I move to France, as she has the better job and can get me a shit whatever job easily. So I agree. In France.... all her female friends has foreign husbands. We all do whatever jobs we are put into, get home and wash the clothes as she refuses and bake the baguette and stuff like that. She sets the dinner locations we go to, take the lead in where we walk on the nightly stroll. When we greet other couples, it's the women acknowledged first. When male kids of French families reach sexual maturity, they are sent off to Germany or Saudi Arabia to marry, and the daughter stays and inherits.

That's your basic matriarchy.

Now add the celtic warfare component of chariot warfare. How likely is a settlement going to be to marry off their young sons who have loyalty and strength to a potential enemy, or neutral power, if war is perpetually a possibility?

Males aren't easily surrendered in societies geared to war. Women don't face the wrath of war as much even when married into the enemy camp. The men outside would have to face total defeat before they let the enemy indoors.

That's the rule for fortified settlements. Now for little hamlets with no defenses- battling on a scale of small rape raids and cattle thieving, men are worth even more. But could swing either way, but these communities are a opportunistic outgrowth of a larger settlement most likely male dominant. But if you go over homosexuality sapiens and back to homo erectus.... I'm bettering while usually male dominant it wouldn't be too much so. Lots more matriarchies earlier in Europe than today.

Today you'll get hermes and chanel wearing female prime ministers in Denmark, Finland. Moldova is odd case given the Russian occupation there. England was always isolated so could risk female queens and prime ministers. It takes a very safe and settled society to risk women running things. Now men are throw away entities. They don't get married off to a neighboring tribe, just fucked over.
It's quite easy to name the relatively small number of women who have assumed historical leadership roles within the patriarchal set up, for one reason or another. Cleopatra is a good example, as is Boudica in Britain. Less well known, but unfairly, is Zenobia of Palmyra in the 3rd century. More recently, of course, we have monarchs like Elizabeth I, who changed the course of world history, by, among other things, founding the British Empire.

The sort of matriarchy you describe is not really what I had in mind, and it's really just like a patriarchy, with the roles swapped. If this is what is understood by the term matriarchy, then perhaps it's not quite the right word to use.

Clearly, there are certain gender roles imposed by biology, and this has a profound impact on how societies are organised. But it's not that much of a stretch, in fact no stretch at all, in my opinion, to say that the traditional motherly role of nurturing and guidance can be extended to society as a whole, and this role assumed by priestesses.
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

Yeah. That's what the role is. So don't use matriarchy.

Frank Herbert's nurturing but firm Fish Speakers?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4FRR7gIww
Maia
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Maia »

Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:50 pm Yeah. That's what the role is. So don't use matriarchy.

Frank Herbert's nurturing but firm Fish Speakers?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IG4FRR7gIww
Yes, maybe something like that, but without the speaking to fish thing in dreams, which I think, to be more inclusive, should be widened to include all aquatic fauna.
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

He was nodding to the sumerian female priesthood. They would dress up as fish people, because their underworld and afterlife was in the Abzu of Iraq.... About being the swampland or rivers edge. They would see fish down there, and thought that would be them. They developed the seven gate theology you spoke of earlier. Ancient Semitic religion. Western world is saturated in it.

This is the Bene Gesserit from the same scifi book series, a female order of witches that manipulate the nobility of the empire:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GoCFfqbwE ... b2tpZXM%3D
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

Found half of the first audiobook on youtube: 8 hours listen:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-qZVmQAf- ... b2Jvb2s%3D
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

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Maia
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Maia »

Constantine wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:31 pm He was nodding to the sumerian female priesthood. They would dress up as fish people, because their underworld and afterlife was in the Abzu of Iraq.... About being the swampland or rivers edge. They would see fish down there, and thought that would be them. They developed the seven gate theology you spoke of earlier. Ancient Semitic religion. Western world is saturated in it.

This is the Bene Gesserit from the same scifi book series, a female order of witches that manipulate the nobility of the empire:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GoCFfqbwE ... b2tpZXM%3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWpaq4onye8

Prey for Leviathan. And Cthulhu too, while you're at it. In Sumerian, of course. The Sumerian chant starts at 6:20, if you want to go and listen to it, though I think there's a bit of Hebrew before that, as well.
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

That is some weird shit Maia.
Constantine
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Re: Nazis and Neo-Pagan Gnosis

Post by Constantine »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UpuGRO72G ... 9yeQ%3D%3D

Hitler's time serving in the Marxist Bavarian Socialist Republic. Alot of his ideas for the Nazis come from it.
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