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Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:27 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
duszek wrote:The question of doing the right thing comes to mind when we make some sort of sacrifice for a higher ideal and repress the instinct of self-preservation.
tbieter wrote:duszek wrote:
Thanks for promoting me to a man !
This just proves that I'm just a silly old man, just a turd circling the drain.
No! No! Everyone's assertions are valuable, whether anyone agrees or not, right or wrong, matters not. As long as they do so earnestly, being as considerate as they can be in the process. I for one, shall always try to treat in kind. I see that the complement was just as much a compliment, regardless of sex. In some minds, in this particular case, possibly more so. Yet I do not subscribe to this notion! We are all equally important, simply different!
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:52 pm
by duszek
I did not expect Tom B. to put ashes on his head, I wanted to surprise him, to amuse him and to be polite to the strong sex in general, which should become a new trend if you ask me.
Many men do a great deal of good and deserve real respect.
Re: ?
Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:21 pm
by Walker
tbieter wrote:duszek wrote:The question of doing the right thing comes to mind when we make some sort of sacrifice for a higher ideal and repress the instinct of self-preservation.
Duszek's comment is profound, probably more than he realizes. Does it result from reason or emotion is the question?
The notion of self-sacrifice is significant in the thinking on religion of Roger Scruton. I'm on the last chapter of his book,
The Soul of the World.
http://www.amazon.com/Soul-World-Roger- ... er+scruton
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18785&p=247536&hili ... on#p247536
It results from self-concept. One's conception of who one is. The warrior who leaps upon the live grenade to save other humans had that notion because of self-concept. Ever hear someone say that's not me? Well it's not until it is.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:59 pm
by duszek
Are you sure that it always is a self-concept ?
It could be a concept of serving God´s will.
Other question: what kind of person would lack any self-concept ? An animal trying to survive selfishly no matter what ?
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:54 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
duszek wrote:I did not expect Tom B. to put ashes on his head, I wanted to surprise him, to amuse him and to be polite to the strong sex in general, which should become a new trend if you ask me.
You seem like a true sweetheart!
Many men do a great deal of good and deserve real respect.
And so do women, Mother Teresa comes to mind, despite my being an agnostic. Her deeds speak for themselves, a true humanitarian, she exemplified that which it is, in being humane; self sacrifice for the sake of others.
I see that we each are half a human, as without two halves to make a whole, there would be no humans at all.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:09 pm
by Walker
duszek wrote:Are you sure that it always is a self-concept ?
It could be a concept of serving God´s will.
Other question: what kind of person would lack any self-concept ? An animal trying to survive selfishly no matter what ?
It would be a child before self-awareness, or an old person after.
However, because a person with self-concept survives selfishly no matter what does not make that person an animal. It makes that person a sentient being with the conscious capacity to hold a defining concept of doing what it takes to survive, no matter what.
So what about this conceptual moral lesson to a generation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixx66T-FPYM
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:31 am
by hajrafradi
tbieter wrote:duszek wrote:The question of doing the right thing comes to mind when we make some sort of sacrifice for a higher ideal and repress the instinct of self-preservation.
Duszek's comment is profound, probably more than he realizes.
I agree. Duszek is definitely smarter than herself.
To me, sacrifice and self-sacrifice in moral actions always boil down to propagating one's own genes, or else to help the closest possible match to survive and propagate.
Thus, moral sacrifice and self-sacrifice in a way is a slyly selfish thing, dressed in an admirable, noble appearance.
The higher ideal does not exist, in my opinion; hence all philosophers who seek to distill it form anywhere via any process fail. The only driving force is a survival of one's own DNA or the closest and most similar to it.
What the reason is: mental or emotional? I think neither. It is an inborn, genetically driven thing, which can't be contervened by the individual's will. It is a force which is irresistible, one can't be a lord over it.
I am very much an evolutionary. If someone hadn't noticed.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:26 am
by tbieter
hajrafradi wrote:tbieter wrote:duszek wrote:The question of doing the right thing comes to mind when we make some sort of sacrifice for a higher ideal and repress the instinct of self-preservation.
Duszek's comment is profound, probably more than he realizes.
I agree. Duszek is definitely smarter than herself.
To me, sacrifice and self-sacrifice in moral actions always boil down to propagating one's own genes, or else to help the closest possible match to survive and propagate.
Thus, moral sacrifice and self-sacrifice in a way is a slyly selfish thing, dressed in an admirable, noble appearance.
The higher ideal does not exist, in my opinion; hence all philosophers who seek to distill it form anywhere via any process fail. The only driving force is a survival of one's own DNA or the closest and most similar to it.
What the reason is: mental or emotional? I think neither. It is an inborn, genetically driven thing, which can't be contervened by the individual's will. It is a force which is irresistible, one can't be a lord over it.
I am very much an evolutionary. If someone hadn't noticed.
You are religiously Darwinian in your thinking.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:54 am
by Walker
hajrafradi wrote:tbieter wrote:duszek wrote:The question of doing the right thing comes to mind when we make some sort of sacrifice for a higher ideal and repress the instinct of self-preservation.
Duszek's comment is profound, probably more than he realizes.
I agree. Duszek is definitely smarter than herself.
To me, sacrifice and self-sacrifice in moral actions always boil down to propagating one's own genes, or else to help the closest possible match to survive and propagate.
Thus, moral sacrifice and self-sacrifice in a way is a slyly selfish thing, dressed in an admirable, noble appearance.
The higher ideal does not exist, in my opinion; hence all philosophers who seek to distill it form anywhere via any process fail. The only driving force is a survival of one's own DNA or the closest and most similar to it.
What the reason is: mental or emotional? I think neither. It is an inborn, genetically driven thing, which can't be contervened by the individual's will. It is a force which is irresistible, one can't be a lord over it.
I am very much an evolutionary. If someone hadn't noticed.
Non-propagators obviously have a driving force other than propagation.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:25 am
by hajrafradi
tbieter wrote:You are religiously Darwinian in your thinking.
I can't argue against that.
Only I wish to note that Darwinian dogma has more useful elements, indeed, it is entirely useful, in explaining things how they work and why they work that way; religious dogman has, oh, I don't know, about a 0.500 batting average (to be fair, it is hard to calculate) in the same aim.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:36 am
by hajrafradi
Walker wrote:
Non-propagators obviously have a driving force other than propagation.
Well, the non-propagators have the driving force AS IF they were propagators. These are, in my opinion, genetically-hard wired driving forces to replicate a goal common to all humans, and all animals. If a specimen does not propagate, s/he still behaves as if, because the gene commands or compels him or her to do so.
Life is replete with man's ingenuity to follow the driving force, and not follow it. For instance:
- Most sex acts: copulation and intercourse, between two fertile people of compatible child bearing qualities do not result in pregnancy.
- Most people are constantly on the lookout for opportunities of pleasures of acts of propagation.
- Those who have no chance of propagation with the sex act, still keep on being on the lookout for any opportunity.
- Most of us care about children, an overwhelming majority of all humans, indeed. This applies whether we are propagators or not.
Genetically coded behavior is hard to break. Priests, nuns, monks, who are celibate, and do not wank off in the corner at all when it's dark, or in any other circumstances, have beaten the code.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:09 pm
by SpheresOfBalance
So "the right thing" is always selfishly motivated. Of course! Even Mother Teresa did what she did because she believed it would assure her entry into heaven. There is no such thing as a 'truly' selfless act, only degrees of selflessness over selfishness. So like all dichotomies there are furthest extremes in both directions, so from a human standpoint, one act can effectively be 'called' selfless and the other selfish, 'relative' to one another, the degree of which can only be determined by the observer, as their subjectivity, bound by their life long experiences, sets the measure of importance of any particular possible constituent, (values, morays, ideals, etc). Sure, on many we can all agree, but some are gray areas, ever changing, dependent upon the human condition climate at the time.
So doing the right thing is always subjective in nature. The only true course of any real philosopher then, is to understand my "fundamental social axiom," which was derived from "the golden rule," meant to remove all philosophical entanglements, previously asserted.
"Treat others as you would have others treat you, to the extent, that all parties knowingly agree at the time."
Time being the only thing one can't account for, in terms of the progression of human knowledge/condition.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:33 pm
by Walker
hajrafradi wrote:Walker wrote:
Non-propagators obviously have a driving force other than propagation.
Well, the non-propagators have the driving force AS IF they were propagators. These are, in my opinion, genetically-hard wired driving forces to replicate a goal common to all humans, and all animals. If a specimen does not propagate, s/he still behaves as if, because the gene commands or compels him or her to do so.
Life is replete with man's ingenuity to follow the driving force, and not follow it. For instance:
- Most sex acts: copulation and intercourse, between two fertile people of compatible child bearing qualities do not result in pregnancy.
- Most people are constantly on the lookout for opportunities of pleasures of acts of propagation.
- Those who have no chance of propagation with the sex act, still keep on being on the lookout for any opportunity.
- Most of us care about children, an overwhelming majority of all humans, indeed. This applies whether we are propagators or not.
Genetically coded behavior is hard to break. Priests, nuns, monks, who are celibate, and do not wank off in the corner at all when it's dark, or in any other circumstances, have beaten the code.
Brahmacharya is often associated with celibacy. The realization of equanimity makes any Life experience appropriately as rich as it can be, thus Brahmacharya is more about perpetual awareness of unfolding creative energy not limited to the sexual.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:06 am
by hajrafradi
Walker wrote:
Brahmacharya is often associated with celibacy. The realization of equanimity makes any Life experience appropriately as rich as it can be, thus Brahmacharya is more about perpetual awareness of unfolding creative energy not limited to the sexual.
Well, that goes without saying. Very true.
But Brahmacharya is confoundingly difficult to attain. It takes years, nay, decades of intense training by way of forceful meditation and Britmayandra Yoga, on top of the non-animal meat diet that one has to follow, to get the self to detach itself from itself, and become one with the oneness.
So while you were absolutely right, the practical aspect of creative energy flow used for increased awareness to experience the richest as life can be experienced, derails mostly on the weakness of humans, who are famous for being able to resist anything but temptation. In practical terms, your head wants to explode after a week of non-release, and it is to no avail, because a normally functioning human will have nocturnal emissions in that case, or the equivalent in dream-state female orgasms.
I am not arguing with you, I basically agree, I'm just saying it takes a giant of a human to attain, and execute Brahmacharya, because one needs Brahmacharya level of awareness with incredible energy-transflux, to attain Brahmacharya.
No ifs, buts and ands about it.
Re: Doing The Right Thing
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:39 pm
by tbieter
hajrafradi wrote:tbieter wrote:You are religiously Darwinian in your thinking.
I can't argue against that.
Only I wish to note that Darwinian dogma has more useful elements, indeed, it is entirely useful, in explaining things how they work and why they work that way; religious dogman has, oh, I don't know, about a 0.500 batting average (to be fair, it is hard to calculate) in the same aim.
I suggest that science, philosophy, and religion deal with different questions. Michael Oakeshott nicely taught this truth in his classic, Experience and its Modes..
Thus, when you use science to answer a religious question, you error and cause confusion.
http://www.amazon.com/Experience-Modes- ... +oakeshott
See this interesting discussion.
http://nautil.us/issue/35/boundaries/wh ... discipline