bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
Ok, to start I have to show that spacetime is fundamental, it cannot begin to exist.
you do not 'have to' do this at all. you, however, what to do this in order to back up and support a pre-existing belief and/or presumption you have and are holding onto.
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
To prove this think of spacetime coming into existence.
Okay, for to prove, and for 'us' to see, that so-called 'spacetime' is 'fundamental', and that it cannot begin to exist, 'we' have to think of 'spacetime' coming into existence.
Would 'you' like 'us' to think of 'spacetime' 'coming into existence' from the perspective of 'evolving into existence', or, from the perspective of just instantly being 'created into existence'?
And, if it is the latter perspective that you are after, would 'you' like 'us' think about 'spacetime' being 'created into being', instantaneously from 'nothing', or, from 'something' else?
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
This means that there was a point
before that spacetime didn't exist.
Ah okay, it appears now that 'you' want 'us' to think of 'coming into existence', from the 'instantaneously created into existence' perspective, only, right? And, it now also appears that 'you' want 'us' to think of 'coming into existence', from the 'instantly created from nothing', perspective, as well, correct?
If you answer 'Yes' to both of these, then what does the word or phrase, 'spacetime', even mean or refer to, to you, exactly?
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
But that means that you need another spacetime to allow spacetime to come into existence.
Only if you had some pre-existing belief or presumption that the Universe, itself, began to exist.
Which by the way would be a Truly CLOSED, and thus Truly stupid view to be having and maintaining. But, then again, you may well believe, absolutely, otherwise.
Why? Because of
before in the previous statement. This leads to infinite regress unless you accept that there is a spacetime that didn't come into existence. [/quote]
I am yet to even become aware of what you even mean by and with the words 'spacetime'.
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
Therefore, spacetime is fundamental and cannot begin to exist.
So, for you to, supposedly, prove that 'spacetime', (whatever that is exactly). cannot begin to exist, was all that was really necessary was for 'us' to just, 'think of spacetime coming into existence'?
If yes, then 'this' seems somewhat very counter intuitive.
But, if you believe that 'this' works, then so be it.
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
Now, what is the great coincidence? God or the stuff that made the universe cannot exist before the beginning of spacetime
Why could 'the stuff' that made the Universe not be able to exist before the so-called 'beginning of spacetime'?
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
so they could only exist at the beginning of spacetime or after.
Why, exactly, could 'the stuff' that made the Universe only exist at the, alleged, 'beginning of spacetime', or after?
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
They come into existence if they didn't exist at the beginning of spacetime.
So, to "bahman" anyway, God, or, 'the stuff', which made the Universe, Itself, 'came into existence' if 'they' did not exist at the, presumed, 'beginning of spacetime'.
But why could God, or, 'the stuff', which made the Universe, itself, not 'come into existence' at the, claimed, 'beginning of spacetime'?
Obviously, any 'stuff', which existed at the, believed, 'beginning of spacetime', 'came into existence' as well, right?
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
That means they were created.
But absolutely every thing, except for the two or three fundamental things of the Universe, Itself, was, is, and will be created, anyway, right?
bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm
This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!
So, "bahman" is 'now' suggesting that God, or, 'the stuff', which made the Universe, Itself, could have existed, exactly, at the, now claimed, and so-called, 'beginning of time'. Whatever and whenever 'that is', exactly.