The problem of self under materialism

[bahman]

I don't think that anybody have a clear answer to what consciousness is.

That is fair. And yet, we all know it exists. So that fact is very interesting in its implications for the limits of science, isn't it? But it's devastating to Materialism as an explanation.

We are not offering to much under dualism too. We simply assign consciousness as a property of mind/soul.

[henry quirk]

"You have a sense of Iness which is animated and produced by your brain."

I am my brain, and my body.

#

"There is no self under materialism."

Well, as I understand it, materialism is "the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications", so I guess I'm a materialist since nuthin' seems to exist except matter and its movements and modifications.

And, as I understand myself, 'I' am real.

So: you're wrong, wrong, and -- of course -- wrong.

[bahman]

"You have a sense of Iness which is animated and produced by your brain."

I am my brain, and my body.

#

"There is no self under materialism."

Well, as I understand it, materialism is "the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications", so I guess I'm a materialist since nuthin' seems to exist except matter and its movements and modifications.

And, as I understand myself, 'I' am real.

So: you're wrong, wrong, and -- of course -- wrong.

Well, all I was saying was that beings cannot have self under materialism. It seems that you agree with me (the bold part above) so I don't understand why you are angry.

[henry quirk]

The bold part is you, a quote from you. Don't you recognize your own words?

And, I'm not angry, I just think you're wrong.

[henry quirk]

bahman wrote: all I was saying was that beings cannot have self under materialism

And that's what I think you're wrong about.

Again, materialism sez "nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications" and this indeed seems to be the case. But, at the same time, as I understand myself, 'I' am real.

So: if all there is material and if I'm real, you're wrong,

[bahman]

The bold part is you, a quote from you. Don't you recognize your own words?

And, I'm not angry, I just think you're wrong.

Well, I think that I am quite correct since I think that self is produced as a result of biochemical changes in our brains. There is nothing like a self in materialism since as you mentioned all things are made of matter.

[henry quirk]

I think that self is produced as a result of biochemical changes in our brain

You ARE your brain, and body, together, as a whole.

You're a person, a self, an 'I', you're real, and you ain't nuthin' but matter (of peculiar and particular arrangement and activity).

[Immanuel Can]

We are not offering to much under dualism too. We simply assign consciousness as a property of mind/soul.

But Dualism has this advantage: at least it can admit that mind exists. Materialism cannot. It can only say brain does, and cannot explain why it cannot explain the tiniest bit about the dynamics of the mind-brain interaction.

Better to be able to admit the problem than to deny it altogether. Dualism has that, at least.

Materialism is just an excuse for not really thinking at all.

[sthitapragya]

1) Materialism is a system of belief that claims that everything is made of matter or it is matter's state
2) The self is a brain state in materialism
3) Any subject matter turns into a brain state in order to be experienced
4) This means that the self (brain state) experiences another brain state (subject matter) in materialism which this is absurd
5) This means that the self cannot be a brain state

4) does not make any sense. The self just customizes the subject matter to its own subjective interpretation. The self does not experience 'another' brain state.

[henry quirk]

Mannie,

Like I told bahman: you're wrong.

Not seein' how materialism (as I understand it) denies mind since I am mind/self/I and I'm real, material, organic, chemical, electrical...I certainly don't deny 'me'.

For example: right now I'm typing this post,,,'me', an ongoing organic event...electricity is jumpin' synaptic gaps (I'm thinkin'), electricity motivates tissue to contract and relax (I'm movin', livin'), and on and on.

'I' am wholly real and 'I' am wholly matter...so where' the denial?

[Terrapin Station]

Self is an illusion under materialism because we have a sense of self yet it doesn't exist.

If we have a sense of self, how can it be that the sense of self doesn't exist?

[bahman]

We are not offering to much under dualism too. We simply assign consciousness as a property of mind/soul.

But Dualism has this advantage: at least it can admit that mind exists. Materialism cannot. It can only say brain does, and cannot explain why it cannot explain the tiniest bit about the dynamics of the mind-brain interaction.

Well, there is something related to all processes which undergo in the brain. What is the purpose of that?

Better to be able to admit the problem than to deny it altogether. Dualism has that, at least.

Yes, but dualism has a long list of problems: (1) It cannot explain that how a mind is related to a body, (2) It cannot resolve the interaction problem, Etc.

[bahman]

1) Materialism is a system of belief that claims that everything is made of matter or it is matter's state
2) The self is a brain state in materialism
3) Any subject matter turns into a brain state in order to be experienced
4) This means that the self (brain state) experiences another brain state (subject matter) in materialism which this is absurd
5) This means that the self cannot be a brain state

4) does not make any sense. The self just customizes the subject matter to its own subjective interpretation. The self does not experience 'another' brain state.

(4) does make sense. What is the function of "self"? You are simply experiencing things (brain states) by your "self".

By the way what do you mean with the bold part?

[bahman]

Self is an illusion under materialism because we have a sense of self yet it doesn't exist.

If we have a sense of self, how can it be that the sense of self doesn't exist?

That is the problem of materialism. The sense of self is generated by brain processes. You don't really have any self.

[Terrapin Station]

That is the problem of materialism. The sense of self is generated by brain processes. You don't really have any self.

Why isn't a sense of self generated by brain processes what the self is?