another psychiatric diagnosis under my belt

[Kayla]

My example I gave was for same sex twins. My apology for that. The rest remains in tact.
I think for both of you, to assume a hand holding relationship in public at school, would certainly incite some comment. Does your boyfriend, (if he is still around after the racist comment) accept the closeness both your brother and yourself have? Remaining together, exclusively, cancels out the opportunity to separate easily. I am suggesting perhaps its time to create some independance.

we dont hold hands in school to avoid as you said 'comments'

my boyfriends accepts how close we are but he is very close with his sister and she is dating my brother so that works out we are very lucky to have found them

we have friends so its not like we need each other to deal with social isolation

[marjoramblues]

ok and now the shrink thinks that my relationship with my twin brother needs more boundaries and that we have emotional incest - ew gross - and yada yada yada

i think i have had enough of the psychobabble

As a matter of interest, Kayla - is your twin brother also receiving therapy ? Does he have a similar psychi collection 'under his belt'?

I'm just wondering about the relative 'strengths' in a twin-ship...

Sorry, if this sounds like a probe too far. This has opened up so many questions for me - not just on your personal level but re the relevance of psychiatry and philosophy and how either/both/neither might be of any use...

Great to see all the varied responses too.

Best -

MB

[reasonvemotion]

Artisticsolution

Perhaps the reason for wanting to split you 2 up is for selfish reasons that your therapist may not be aware of? As it has been an observation of mine that most adults usually don't like to see too much happiness in the world when it is not having to do with themselves directly. It is as if it almost translates into 'decadence' for them somehow. And moreover, I have noticed that, for most adults, the easiest place to begin/control 'too much' happiness taking place is by taking away a child's happiness first...before their own happiness. (for example, criticizing or even banning childish fun/behavior such as holidays like Halloween/Christmas/etc. by using adult concepts of truth/morality) And this is even more fucked up...because a child's happiness is based in innocence...free from "decadence" whereas an adults 'happiness' is probably more likely to be based in decadent thought or at least guilty associations of a learned behavior in regard to 'decadent' thought. This transference is wrong if you ask me. It is the handing down of misguided beliefs that pleasurable feelings = wrongdoing, and that is not necessarily so.

Reasonvemotion

If you’re not a twin, it’s easy to project that all twins love each other, that they’re best friends, and that they need each other. So the idea of twin privacy, separateness, and individuation can surprise some people. What must be taken into consideration is that Kayla and her brother are twins and they will always share a special, special bond, but, they are indivduals first and foremost and it would be unwise to forego the individuation process to find their separate identitites.

[chaz wyman]

There is a lot of mumbo-jumbo that the general public wish to believe about twins, and twins should not feel any pressure to conform to their ideal. Genetically, as Kayla and her brother are different genders, they are no more similar than ordinary siblings except they had the extra burden of being born on the same day. Because of this they will feel the same or more sibling rivalry than they would had they been born apart. In any event identical twins' bond relies on the fact that they are born with the same personality types. This only helps in the early stages when the babies are no experientially differentiated, and also relies on the specific personality type being a co-operative one. Many is the case that twins can fall out in far deeper ways due to their make-up and the apparent consequences, reflected against the 'twin myth', seem far more strident, due to the fact that they have might both have a competitive personality.

[John]

If we've learned anything from Hollywood isn't it that there's always a a good twin and an evil twin?

[artisticsolution]

If you’re not a twin, it’s easy to project that all twins love each other, that they’re best friends, and that they need each other. So the idea of twin privacy, separateness, and individuation can surprise some people. What must be taken into consideration is that Kayla and her brother are twins and they will always share a special, special bond, but, they are indivduals first and foremost and it would be unwise to forego the individuation process to find their separate identitites.

I don't understand your line of reasoning. Who is arguing that they are not individuals? Of course they are individuals...even if they were identical twins they would be individuals. Even if they were cojoined twins they would be individuals...I think...although it could be debated if they were joined at the brain then I would have to say they were but one individual with 2 bodies.... but I digress...what was I getting to again?

Oh yeah...individuality...

I don't understand what you think would happen to them if they remained close? Do you think that Kayla would have to go through a traumatic event.... if.....let's say.... Kayla's brother marries a girl who does not like Kayla, and never allows him to see Kayla again (unlikely...but let's just say...)

Do you think that would be any more traumatic if you forced/broke their bond now? If Kayla's brother, left her someday, she may go through trauma...or she may be old enough to deal with it...that is a whole lot of 'if's' as opposed to if she was forced to make the split now. There is no guarantee it would be better now or later....

Kayla is going to learn to manage on her "own" whether of not people meddle in her life. She will learn to manage on her own because she is an individual....and that mean she has an individual hand which will decide who's hand to hold and whose hand to shun.

No need to put her through it now...as it may come naturally on it's own or not..but so what...as whatever may be...whether they remain close or not...there is no denying their individuality.

What I don't understand is your fear of someone not becoming an 'individual.' Could you please explain to me why you think a person could somehow not become an 'individual' why you think it is a bad thing?

[reasonvemotion]

I have never disputed that K and her brother are not individuals. In fact I have stated that they are. What I am saying is that one of the two may be more strongly attached to their twin than the other, one may become "clingy" while the other may want some "space". The reason I suggest K continue to see her therapist is, if she is the one who is "clingy",(for want of a better word and not to suggest that twin is in any way inferior) the therapist will help K in her struggle to overcome her co-dependency and strike out on her own. It is good to have individual experiences and get to know your own needs and to recognise each has his or her own needs.

[Kayla]

There is a lot of mumbo-jumbo that the general public wish to believe about twins, and twins should not feel any pressure to conform to their ideal.

i am not aware of any pressure for us to conform to any sort of idea of twins

if anything there was the opposite

i know our parents were concerned as until we were about six we were simply not interested in playing with any other children and they wanted to get us playing with other children - they were worried about our social development

i do not remember that period of my life extremely well but my parents to me that it got to a point where they pretty much gave up and one day we just started playing with other children as well they cannot link it to anything they did

This only helps in the early stages when the babies are no experientially differentiated,

we always had very different personalities but that never got in the way of us being close

now my brother is what some believers in reincarnation might call 'an old soul'

he was always organized and calm and incredibly patient and aware of his surroundings and as far as i can tell he lacks the fear response

i was and remain a bundle of random emotions and haphazard creativity

[artisticsolution]

I have never disputed that K and her brother are not individuals. In fact I have stated that they are. What I am saying is that one of the two may be more strongly attached to their twin than the other, one may become "clingy" while the other may want some "space". The reason I suggest K continue to see her therapist is, if she is the one who is "clingy",(for want of a better word and not to suggest that twin is in any way inferior) the therapist will help K in her struggle to overcome her co-dependency and strike out on her own. It is good to have individual experiences and get to know your own needs and to recognise each has his or her own needs.

I didn't say that you think they are not individuals....just that you seem to imply I do. I believe that most people will find their own path to 'individual experiences' and recognize each has 'his or her own needs' with or without the help of a therapist.

Why do you think that becoming an 'individual' would only come at the expense and time of going to a therapist?

Do you think there is a situation that a person can become an 'individual' without the aid of a therapist?

Do you think that there is a slight possibility that therapy could do more harm than good in the long run?

Is there at least a possibility that Kayla and her brother would be better off in the long run with no interference from professionals?

How do you know?

[Kayla]

As a matter of interest, Kayla - is your twin brother also receiving therapy ? Does he have a similar psychi collection 'under his belt'?

he had a few sessions about his separation anxiety

he ended up telling the shrink what she wanted to hear and she told our parents that he is over it

other than that he is extremely sane or perhaps his insanity does not take the dramatic form that mine does

[reasonvemotion]

I didn't say that you think they are not individuals....just that you seem to imply I do. I believe that most people will find their own path to 'individual experiences' and recognize each has 'his or her own needs' with or without the help of a therapist.

Why do you think that becoming an 'individual' would only come at the expense and time of going to a therapist?

Do you think there is a situation that a person can become an 'individual' without the aid of a therapist?

Do you think that there is a slight possibility that therapy could do more harm than good in the long run?

Is there at least a possibility that Kayla and her brother would be better off in the long run with no interference from professionals?

How do you know?


I don't know, nor am I qualified to answer in depth. Perhaps Artisticsolution, you would care to elaborate on your own questions.

[chaz wyman]

There is a lot of mumbo-jumbo that the general public wish to believe about twins, and twins should not feel any pressure to conform to their ideal.

i am not aware of any pressure for us to conform to any sort of idea of twins

That's the whole point about these assumptions; they work by becoming endemic assumptions that go generally unnoticed.

[artisticsolution]

I didn't say that you think they are not individuals....just that you seem to imply I do. I believe that most people will find their own path to 'individual experiences' and recognize each has 'his or her own needs' with or without the help of a therapist.

Why do you think that becoming an 'individual' would only come at the expense and time of going to a therapist?

Do you think there is a situation that a person can become an 'individual' without the aid of a therapist?

Do you think that there is a slight possibility that therapy could do more harm than good in the long run?

Is there at least a possibility that Kayla and her brother would be better off in the long run with no interference from professionals?

How do you know?


I don't know, nor am I qualified to answer in depth. Perhaps Artisticsolution, you would care to elaborate on your own questions.

That's my whole point Reasonvemotion...you don't know....no one can know for sure. So why do you say Kayla would 'overcome her co-dependency and strike out on her own' if she continued seeing her therapist, if you don't really know?

[Kayla]

That's the whole point about these assumptions; they work by becoming endemic assumptions that go generally unnoticed.

my brother and i were very close when we were preverbal before we were subject to society's assumptions

[reasonvemotion]

Artisticsolution

That's my whole point Reasonvemotion...you don't know....no one can know for sure. So why do you say Kayla would 'overcome her co-dependency and strike out on her own' if she continued seeing her therapist, if you don't really know?

They may be born on the same day but twins are unique, individual people and it’s inevitable that some day soon one will make the team, win the science award, or receive acceptance at a prestigious college. Puberty is now in full force and menstruation will occur if not already. I think separate beds, or separate rooms, if it is possible, should now be considered.

As this discussion is bordering on sensitive information and Kayla's privacy the reason I said "I dont know" is due to further information would be needed to expand on an opinion of the questions you ask and as I was discussing exclusively K's case, I dont feel it appropriate to discuss online, she has her therapist for that.