Greatest I am wrote:
Sounds like you expect the Church to walk it’s talk.
Good luck with finding one that does.
Regards
DL
Hi Greatest,
I don't know if I am looking toward "man" in order to find "truth" or God. I see religion and the Church to be flawed because it is a man made concept. This is different from how I view "God" (If there is a God) I have a sense of God...a sense of something pure, honest, good....but no way of knowing if that is reality or my imagination playing trick on me...as I have no actual proof of what I believe (or desire?)
Anyway....just thinking aloud. If I can't honestly state there is a God...but I want (desire) there to be the one I imagine (cause the others are bat shit crazy). Still, I can't claim to be anything but agnostic and still be honest with myself and my God...if he exists. More information than you needed to know? LOL
Knowing that you seek is all I need to know of the way you think.
It is those who have found a God in a book that are retarded.
This is true to a point. The church can still, and still does, discriminate against gay marriage, and against gays becoming priests.
Why shouldn`t it? after all its about the marriage of heterosexuals.
Why are you getting hysterical? I said it does not that it shouldn't.
But the reasons why it shouldn't ought to be as obvious to you as all the other things the church has backed down on behind the law of the land for the last 2000 years.
The church continues to discriminate because, as usual it is far behind the progress of human kindness.
If I was gay what would I be doing in an establishment that didn`t believe in my way of life?
You would, I hope, be changing it as so many gay persons are doing so right now, and have attempted to do so since the dawn of the church. Common sense wins out over the word of God every time.
You seem to think the church ought to change its doctrines to suit the gay way of life, and thats irrational.
The church as ALWAYS changed it doctrines to suit the population. Where have you been? Maybe you are from another planet?
The reality is many gays do become priests as a way to bring down the establishment they dislike.
No, to forge change from within. A friend of mine's mother is a vicar in the church of Wales - she would never have been allowed to do that even 20 years ago. But as the wife of a vicar and life -long contributor to the church she was the first women to become a vicar in history. Like I said - things change!
You only have to pick up a newspaper these days to read not only gays but also paedophiles join the priesthood to attack choirboys.
Gays and Paedophiles are of a different category, they are not the same thing. Did you mean that EVEN heterosexual paedophiles join the church to follow their pervertion or was that a slip of the tongue?
In fact one of my Gay friends dates an Anglican priest so the Anglican church seem to allow gay priests or maybe they don`t know they have a gay priest hehe its all to ridiculous.
And you think he is a paedophile do you?
In answer to the question does the church have the right to discriminate, seems obvious that the church has a right to stick to its doctrines.
That would be a first. Doctrines, it seems are for changing. At least we don't burn witches any more.
This is true to a point. The church can still, and still does, discriminate against gay marriage, and against gays becoming priests.
Individuals also discriminate against homosexuality because of their personal beliefs. Nevertheless, they are constrained like the Church by the State how far they can go with their discrimination.
That is true. And it is possible that the state CAN, impose its values on all churches.
Some private clubs have restrictive memberships. But as the case of the British National Party has shown recently - they have been banned from denying membership to black and Irish people.
But you and I know that the church can and does discriminate in spite of the law.
spike wrote:Since we are talking about GOD, I think He created homosexuality deliberately as a wedge against and status quo and piety. He created homosexuality as a third rail to agitate the powers that be and bring more robustness to life.
Marxists in the Frankfurt School worried about who would replace the proletariat as agents of reform when they became satisfied and complacent. The answer given was that "a coalition of students, blacks, feminists, homosexuals and other socially marginal elements" would. And homosexuals, like the others mentioned, have played their part in bringing reform and robustness to society and Civilization.
And what did Adorno do when the he was invited by students to join the protests in the 70s??? He stayed in his office (ivory tower), reform can be further away than you think.
Chaz wyman
[quote] me: You only have to pick up a newspaper these days to read not only gays but also paedophiles join the priesthood to attack choirboys.
Chaz wyman : Gays and Paedophiles are of a different category, they are not the same thing. Did you mean that EVEN heterosexual paedophiles join the church to follow their pervertion or was that a slip of the tongue?
[/quote]
And I made that distinction seems you enjoy distorting what is in plain sight. The trouble is chaz you would need to get up real early in the morning to try and run your red herring rings around me choirboys are legally 16yr olds when some gays try it on with them..paedophiles are not what i equate as gay although many are bi sexual in fact many are tri sexual what is termmed abberational and over sexed..they would go with a sheep if they got desperate. which is why it is obvious that certain clergy join the cloth for one reason to induge their pervertions. Which means the church should monitor and get rid of them instead they protect them and sheild them?
Last edited by Izzywizzy on Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
And what did Adorno do when the he was invited by students to join the protests in the 70s??? He stayed in his office (ivory tower), reform can be further away than you think.
Please, and what does this have to do with anything? Adorno was a tired old man! Reforms went on without him.
My issue with the church is its forgiveness policy..its not a priests place to forgive that is their gods place as written by their bible. Most churches will tell you they can`t judge you, god judges you..they can only guide you in their ways..and encourage you to turn away from sin..but they allow a murderer to confess and won`t report them to relevant authorities this i find repugnant!
And what did Adorno do when the he was invited by students to join the protests in the 70s??? He stayed in his office (ivory tower), reform can be further away than you think.
Please, and what does this have to do with anything? Adorno was a tired old man! Reforms went on without him.
Being a tired old man never stopped Bertrand Russell from standing in Trafalgar Square in the cold to speak out against nuclear weapons.
Adorno was a hypocrite. He had wealth and power to put his money where his mouth was and failed.
eing a tired old man never stopped Bertrand Russell from standing in Trafalgar Square in the cold to speak out against nuclear weapons.
Adorno was a hypocrite. He had wealth and power to put his money where his mouth was and failed.
SO! Hypocrisy is everywhere but the world still goes around!
Izzywizzy wrote:[That would be a first. Doctrines, it seems are for changing. At least we don't burn witches any more.
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Burning may be out but not killing and child abuse.
It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.
Izzywizzy wrote:[That would be a first. Doctrines, it seems are for changing. At least we don't burn witches any more.
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Burning may be out but not killing and child abuse.
It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.
For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can.
Regards
DL
Evidence enough for the point I was making - is that there is no hard and fast doctrine and that the church believes nothing today that it will insist upon tomorrow.
In the last 300 years or more it has followed changing public opinion on ethics and has not led it, at least in the West.
This ought to be enough to assert that religion has nothing to do with the moral teaching of an immutable god, and everything to do with the vicissitudes of human society.
We should be suspicious and attack any claim that the church is the leader of ethical opinion.
I hear what you are saying about gay unions, but to me I don't see a problem with 'blessing" them...here's why:
Well here`s the difference I am addressing the questioning of the Church and not whether gay union has a right to be accepted. It is already accepted as a Civil legal Union in europe. Gays can marry and get blessed wherever they want to, but if they go to a mainstream church then the church has their own doctrines and will abide by them. Which is why if anyone is discriminating its the militant wing of the gay right discriminating against the church to try and enforce and ring their changes on and in the church.
I don't see the gay rights discriminating against the church. How are they trying to enforce their position on the Church? They aren't telling any one to be gay. All they are saying is it is within their right to be treated the same as any other human as everyone sins. The Church cannot know for sure a gay couple will ever have sex. It is the same as the Church not knowing who is going to murder, steal, rape or lie. The church's hypocrisy in this respect makes me feel they don't have an inkling what God is actually telling them. How do they expect to teach God's word when they think they are God. Theirs should be a humble voice....a voice that recognizes it wretchedness. Only God is a non sinner. One of the commandments is have no other Gods before me. Well, the Church is saying..."ignore the commandment made by God to love thy neighbor...instead follow our rules." That is a sin. And a pretty big one according to God. In fact...that is more of a sin, since it is in the 10 commandments, than homosexuality...which is not in the 10 commandments.
chaz wyman wrote:[Evidence enough for the point I was making - is that there is no hard and fast doctrine and that the church believes nothing today that it will insist upon tomorrow.
In the last 300 years or more it has followed changing public opinion on ethics and has not led it, at least in the West.
This ought to be enough to assert that religion has nothing to do with the moral teaching of an immutable god, and everything to do with the vicissitudes of human society.
We should be suspicious and attack any claim that the church is the leader of ethical opinion.
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chaz wyman wrote:[Evidence enough for the point I was making - is that there is no hard and fast doctrine and that the church believes nothing today that it will insist upon tomorrow.
In the last 300 years or more it has followed changing public opinion on ethics and has not led it, at least in the West.
This ought to be enough to assert that religion has nothing to do with the moral teaching of an immutable god, and everything to do with the vicissitudes of human society.
We should be suspicious and attack any claim that the church is the leader of ethical opinion.
[/color]
choirboys are legally 16yr olds when some gays try it on with them..paedophiles are not what i equate as gay although many are bi sexual in fact many are tri sexual what is termmed abberational and over sexed..they would go with a sheep if they got desperate. which is why it is obvious that certain clergy join the cloth for one reason to induge their pervertions. Which means the church should monitor and get rid of them instead they protect them and sheild them?