Let's talk about SOULS

[Flannel Jesus]

But yearn backwards is nraey, and we don't want that

[attofishpi]

I am an atheist because I don't believe things without having a reason to believe them.

I can name many reasons to believe at least one thing, Christ. (one of them I detail below)

I know there is more to reality than I can know through my senses, and sometimes reality throws up questions that we can't answer, so we look for clues to help us conceptualise what those answers might be, but I am not aware of any question that reality has ever presented us with to which the answer might be, "the soul".

True, but there was at least one question (pertaining to faith in Christ) that gave at least some believers the answer that indeed, yes, the soul does exist.

There may well have been some historic figure called Jesus, who wandered round preaching and gathering followers; I really don't know.

"Preaching and gathering followers" on account, he is purported to have done a lot more than that.

What I do know is that we shouldn't be basing our sense of reality on a far fetched story written thousands of years ago.

Sure, but to discount ALL of it as bollocks and to have no trust in our fellow humans account of anything of 'divinity' through time is rather short of sight.
Indeed what IS far fetched when we delve deep into the quantum nature of reality? Every time we think we have its measure, we lose information and are left with a field of probability. We observe something, and the mere observation affects the result.
There is something between us, our observing soul and what is observed that affects both sides of the equation.

[Harbal]

I can name many reasons to believe at least one thing, Christ. (one of them I detail below)



True, but there was at least one question (pertaining to faith in Christ) that gave at least some believers the answer that indeed, yes, the soul does exist.

There may well have been some historic figure called Jesus, who wandered round preaching and gathering followers; I really don't know.

"Preaching and gathering followers" on account, he is purported to have done a lot more than that.

But what he is purported to have done, and what he actually did, could well be totally different things. Just out of interest; what is he purported to have done that you find so wonderful?

What I do know is that we shouldn't be basing our sense of reality on a far fetched story written thousands of years ago.

Sure, but to discount ALL of it as bollocks and to have no trust in our fellow humans account of anything of 'divinity' through time is rather short of sight.

But it's just religious mythology, like countless others from all round the world. The fact that I just happened to be born in a part of the world where the Bible is prevalent is no reason to think it is any truer than any other ancient religious text.

Indeed what IS far fetched when we delve deep into the quantum nature of reality? Every time we think we have its measure, we lose information and are left with a field of probability. We observe something, and the mere observation affects the result.
There is something between us, our observing soul and what is observed that affects both sides of the equation.

But we have no idea what that something is, and I can't think of any reason to fill that gap in our understanding with notions of souls, or God.

And it isn't the same kind of far fetched. Scientists can observe and measure these quantum shenanigans, even if they can't yet work out what it means, so although it defies traditional logic, it is not at all like just reading about something written by scientifically ignorant tribespeople back in the mists of time.

[attofishpi]

There may well have been some historic figure called Jesus, who wandered round preaching and gathering followers; I really don't know.

"Preaching and gathering followers" on account, he is purported to have done a lot more than that.

But what he is purported to have done, and what he actually did, could well be totally different things. Just out of interest; what is he purported to have done that you find so wonderful?

Wonderful can be defined various ways. The dictionary I just used simply had extremely good. ..so I think Christ going to his death without changing his narrative about himself was indeed, just that. He didn't have to do it for any reason beyond love of us and his hope in that...that we do to others like_wise.

What I do know is that we shouldn't be basing our sense of reality on a far fetched story written thousands of years ago.

Sure, but to discount ALL of it as bollocks and to have no trust in our fellow humans account of anything of 'divinity' through time is rather short of sight.

But it's just religious mythology, like countless others from all round the world.

..and you discount them ALL as fictional 'mythology'. (I don't discount any, aspects sure...just as in "Christianity")

The fact that I just happened to be born in a part of the world where the Bible is prevalent is no reason to think it is any truer than any other ancient religious text.

Sure, but that part of the world still enjoyed the freedom within the ethical structure of what Christ taught such that science and knowledge flourished.

Indeed what IS far fetched when we delve deep into the quantum nature of reality? Every time we think we have its measure, we lose information and are left with a field of probability. We observe something, and the mere observation affects the result.
There is something between us, our observing soul and what is observed that affects both sides of the equation.

But we have no idea what that something is,

..I think I do.

..and I can't think of any reason to fill that gap in our understanding with notions of souls, or God.
And it isn't the same kind of far fetched. Scientists can observe and measure these quantum shenanigans, even if they can't yet work out what it means, so although it defies traditional logic,

I am not sure how logic changes over time Harbal, but certainly if in an experiment an observation changes the result, then one seriously should consider what is between consciousness and observation.

..it is not at all like just reading about something written by scientifically ignorant tribespeople back in the mists of time.

I've read enough of the Bible to know that it was not written by ignorant tribespeople. Certainly, scientific methodologies were not present, but there is a lot of literature there to consider (most of the time) that it was written by very intelligent people.

[Harbal]

"Preaching and gathering followers" on account, he is purported to have done a lot more than that.

But what he is purported to have done, and what he actually did, could well be totally different things. Just out of interest; what is he purported to have done that you find so wonderful?

Wonderful can be defined various ways. The dictionary I just used simply had extremely good. ..so I think Christ going to his death without changing his narrative about himself was indeed, just that. He didn't have to do it for any reason beyond love of us and his hope in that...that we do to others like_wise.

My understanding is that Jesus was put to death for going round saying stuff that the authorities didn't like, and history -right up to the present day- is peppered with such instances. I don't know in what way love comes into it, but there is much about the Bible that I don't know.

But it's just religious mythology, like countless others from all round the world.

..and you discount them ALL as fictional 'mythology'. (I don't discount any, aspects sure...just as in "Christianity")

I just don't take any of it into consideration; solely because I don't feel I have any reason to. When I want to learn about the world I live in, I tend to look for the most up to date sources of information.

I am not sure how logic changes over time Harbal, but certainly if in an experiment an observation changes the result, then one seriously should consider what is between consciousness and observation.

I am not a scientist, and only know about this stuff from dumbed down Youtube videos, so I am not in a position to say anything sensible about it.

I've read enough of the Bible to know that it was not written by ignorant tribespeople. Certainly, scientific methodologies were not present, but there is a lot of literature there to consider (most of the time) that it was written by very intelligent people.

I don't know how intelligent they were, but they were woefully uneducated by today's standards. And it isn't just their uninformed interpretations of the world around them that I don't have any faith in. We don't know what might have motivated them to write down what they did, or what agendas they might have been pursuing. It is all unverifiable, which might be fine for those who are just looking for something to believe in, but not much good to those who are searching for genuine knowledge.

[attofishpi]

It is all unverifiable, which might be fine for those who are just looking for something to believe in, but not much good to those who are searching for genuine knowledge.

To the contrary, faith was required for the extra genuine knowledge that I for one now have obtained.

Regarding unverifiable about such things as miracles from what I have witnessed of the power of this God, I wonder what wine the water was turned into, Cab-Sav, Shiraz etc..heck, maybe a white wine Pinot Gris slurp slurp very nice.

[Harbal]

It is all unverifiable, which might be fine for those who are just looking for something to believe in, but not much good to those who are searching for genuine knowledge.

To the contrary, faith was required for the extra genuine knowledge that I for one now have obtained.

Regarding unverifiable about such things as miracles from what I have witnessed of the power of this God, I wonder what wine the water was turned into, Cab-Sav, Shiraz etc..heck, maybe a white wine Pinot Gris slurp slurp very nice.

If your beliefs are a result of your direct experience, then I suppose we could say that my lack of such beliefs is down to my lack of such experience.