Philosophy Now Forum

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

Perhaps it might be helpful if we go back to the OP.

The latest research in this area can be found in Jesse Prinz's book, "The Conscious Brain." Impossible to summarize in a few paragraphs, suffice to say the self arises at the intermediate level of perception. The book is a good read.

Ginkgo wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

Perhaps it might be helpful if we go back to the OP.

The latest research in this area can be found in Jesse Prinz's book, "The Conscious Brain." Impossible to summarize in a few paragraphs, suffice to say the self arises at the intermediate level of perception. The book is a good read.

Thanks, but although it appears the brain is conscious, it is not, the brain is already the consciousness it is conscious of.

The arising self is a phantom therefore the brain isn't doing anything to form that which never actually existed.

Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman says Brains and neurons have no causal powers. They cause none of our perceptual experiences, and none of our behaviour.

"Brains and neurons have no causal powers"

Layin' on the floor, nekkid to the world, probably not.

Why?

Cuz, without a body, a brain can't live.

Now take the whole individual (brain and body married seamlessly) and -- hell yeah! -- that individual has mighty, big-ass, causal powers!

You can test this out for yourself any damn time you care to...RG1 is welcome to test it out for himself too.

Before you can, however, the both of you gotta pull your heads out from your tushies...if you don't, no test I can offer will mean diddly.

So: let me know when either of you is standin' upright (not bent over and up like a malformed uroboros) and I'll give you instructions.

Till then: 'nuff said.

henry quirk wrote:"Brains and neurons have no causal powers"

Layin' on the floor, nekkid to the world, probably not.

Why?

Cuz, without a body, a brain can't live.

Now take the whole individual (brain and body married seamlessly) and -- hell yeah! -- that individual has mighty, big-ass, causal powers!

You can test this out for yourself any damn time you care to...RG1 is welcome to test it out for himself too.

Before you can, however, the both of you gotta pull your heads out from your tushies...if you don't, no test I can offer will mean diddly.

So: let me know when either of you is standin' upright (not bent over and up like a malformed uroboros) and I'll give you instructions.

Till then: 'nuff said.

There's a wrinkle to this. Soon head transplants will be done.

PhilX

henry quirk wrote:"Brains and neurons have no causal powers"

Layin' on the floor, nekkid to the world, probably not.

Why?

Cuz, without a body, a brain can't live.

Now take the whole individual (brain and body married seamlessly) and -- hell yeah! -- that individual has mighty, big-ass, causal powers!

You can test this out for yourself any damn time you care to...RG1 is welcome to test it out for himself too.

Before you can, however, the both of you gotta pull your heads out from your tushies...if you don't, no test I can offer will mean diddly.

So: let me know when either of you is standin' upright (not bent over and up like a malformed uroboros) and I'll give you instructions.

Till then: 'nuff said.

The only 'thing' that has any 'causal power' is causality itself, and even at that, being an eternally cyclic process, causality can never have any lasting affect on Reality at all.

it's funny how distinctions between metaphisics and epistemology are made.

Dontaskme wrote:
Thanks, but although it appears the brain is conscious, it is not, the brain is already the consciousness it is conscious of.

If it is conscious "of" then it is still conscious.

Dontaskme wrote: The arising self is a phantom therefore the brain isn't doing anything to form that which never actually existed.

Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman says Brains and neurons have no causal powers. They cause none of our perceptual experiences, and none of our behaviour.

Even if Hoffman is correct it has nothing to do with with how the self arises in the brain.

Dontaskme wrote:Where is this Self that everyone seems to be talking about?

Yours is there, contained within your body and mine is here, contained within mine, just like everyone's.

"The only 'thing' that has any 'causal power' is causality itself, and even at that, being an eternally cyclic process, causality can never have any lasting affect on Reality at all."

Manure.

Joe gets up my nose...mebbe all his zen crap annoys me...I punch Joe in the head...Joe falls down.

Joes causes irritation; I cause pain and injury.

Damn well seems to me there's 'causal power' all over the friggin' place.

#

"Yours is there, contained within your body and mine is here, contained within mine, just like everyone's."

Exactly right, SoB, exactly right.

henry quirk wrote:"The only 'thing' that has any 'causal power' is causality itself, and even at that, being an eternally cyclic process, causality can never have any lasting affect on Reality at all."

Manure.

Joe gets up my nose...mebbe all his zen crap annoys me...I punch Joe in the head...Joe falls down.

Joes causes irritation; I cause pain and injury.

Damn well seems to me there's 'causal power' all over the friggin' place.

Both 'Henry' and 'Joe' and their actions are 'facets' of the one seamless, multi-faceted flow of causality, which is the 'dynamic fractal asymmetry' commonly known as the universe.

This...

Both 'Henry' and 'Joe' and their actions are 'facets' of the one seamless, multi-faceted flow of causality, which is the 'dynamic fractal asymmetry' commonly known as the universe.

...is precisely the kinda nonsense that gets up my nose and has me boppin' folks upside the head.

henry quirk wrote:This...

Both 'Henry' and 'Joe' and their actions are 'facets' of the one seamless, multi-faceted flow of causality, which is the 'dynamic fractal asymmetry' commonly known as the universe.

...is precisely the kinda nonsense that gets up my nose and has me boppin' folks upside the head.

Perfect response, Henry!

I'm sure it is.

The question is, is there any possibility at all of anything else happening? Could 'Henry' choose that this 'nonsense' NOT get up his nose, and if not, could he respond to it getting up his nose in any other way?

I bet he couldn't, and that's PERFECTLY FINE! It's just the way It goes, apparently.

Ginkgo wrote:

Dontaskme wrote:
Thanks, but although it appears the brain is conscious, it is not, the brain is already the consciousness it is conscious of.

If it is conscious "of" then it is still conscious.

Dontaskme wrote: The arising self is a phantom therefore the brain isn't doing anything to form that which never actually existed.

Cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman says Brains and neurons have no causal powers. They cause none of our perceptual experiences, and none of our behaviour.

Even if Hoffman is correct it has nothing to do with with how the self arises in the brain.

There is no self in the brain. There is no such thing as a self.

It's an idea.


All there is is consciousness. Brains are not conscious. Consciousness is the brain, and the trees, and the flowers, and you know......

Dontaskme wrote: All there is is consciousness. Brains are not conscious. Consciousness is the brain, and the trees, and the flowers, and you know......

"Brains are not conscious." followed by "Consciousness is the brain." is another contradiction in terms.

Ginkgo wrote:

Dontaskme wrote: All there is is consciousness. Brains are not conscious. Consciousness is the brain, and the trees, and the flowers, and you know......

"Brains are not conscious." followed by "Consciousness is the brain." is another contradiction in terms.

The one who speaks of contradiction or relationship, same thing, does not exist separate from what already IS one without a second.
Contradiction is unavoidable in that you cannot know what you are.. without also knowing what you are not. To know what you are not is to know what you are. To know what you are is to know what you are not.

No one knows this.